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-   -   Do I need a DI box to run into Eleven rack? (https://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=389666)

Kinh 03-15-2017 06:46 PM

Do I need a DI box to run into Eleven rack?
 
I'm trying to get a good (precise) clean tone. Running a lead into the rack, outputting into interface alone sounds rubbish...too weak. Was wondering if I need to convert to mic level before it goes into Eleven and by doing this I'll have the original tone (the highs) of the guitar.

Benoni 03-16-2017 10:29 AM

Re: Do I need a DI box to run into Eleven rack?
 
Well, first you need to describe how you are running the Eleven Rack into another interface.

Also, why? The Eleven Rack is an audio interface.

junkgear 03-16-2017 10:33 AM

Re: Do I need a DI box to run into Eleven rack?
 
If you are talking about plugging your guitar into the front guitar input on the 11R, then no, you do not and should not use a DI box. The front panel input is optimized for guitar.

If you could give us a little more information about your setup and how you have the 11R connected to your system, we can offer a little more help.

Kinh 03-16-2017 11:24 PM

Re: Do I need a DI box to run into Eleven rack?
 
So Ive read the manual and it says something about True-Z circuit changing the guitar signal the same "manner as plugging into a real amp or effect." It doesn't say what that impedance value is.
When I run my guitar through eleven it sounds crap. All the highs have disappeared, there's no body, it sounds like it's sending a very narrow range of mid frequencies through...the equivalent of a cheap toy Casio.

This supposed True-Z, do I need to activate it? Is is supposed to act as a DI box? Does it bring the high impedance down to low? It's just that there's no difference plugging into my interface vs going through eleven. NONE!

panamajack 03-22-2017 09:44 PM

Re: Do I need a DI box to run into Eleven rack?
 
Not sure how long you have owned your 11R, but I bought the first release and the presets were not set up right. That was years ago and it still has the version 1.03 firmware. I bought a second 11R pre-loaded with the v 2.01 firmware and I assume I will need to tweak whatever settings it defaults with when I get around to monkeying with it.

As far as the True-Z, the original 11R came with a setup window that let you do it on-screen. Still haven't played around with the v 2.01 unit enough to be articulate, but I understand the 2.x editor is a stand-alone program, and that's where you should look if you want to change settings. You can program a few things through the panel buttons, too.

I usually use two different preamps for live performance: the first one is solid state to raise the guitar signal up to line level, the second is a tube preamp set up to accept line level, then the output is a power tube setup to drive the speakers.

I did use the 11R to drive a Mesa 200 watt amp. That sounded good, but it was really loud and hard to know if the tone was the 11R, the (8) 6L6 tubes in the Mesa, or the twin stereo speaker cabs loaded with 10" JBLs on one side and EVs on the other. But I also spent many hours adjusting the 11R settings to tailor it to my taste.

It was tough to use the 11R live without a stomp box to change the settings. The interesting thing about using an 11R for recording is the way you can embed settings on the recording track.

Kinh 08-13-2017 06:47 AM

Re: Do I need a DI box to run into Eleven rack?
 
Ok then here's an easier question...do I need to run eleven rack into a di box?

Darryl Ramm 08-13-2017 11:53 AM

Do I need a DI box to run into Eleven rack?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinh (Post 2444939)
Ok then here's an easier question...do I need to run eleven rack into a di box?


Your question makes no sense. So likely no. But I can't even guess what you really are trying to do. None of the Eleven Rack outputs are (edit sorry typo high not low) high impedance (not even the Rig outs) so you would never need to connect a DI box there. And if you want to get the signal out to a separate interface the digital outs are the way to go, or line analog if digital ins are not available. If you truly went to split the guitar analog signal say to a live amp rig then put a splitter in front of the Eleven Rack.

And folks here keep asking you questions you do not answer.

The eleven rack is an interface with a high impedance/DI input, so again, why do you need another DI?

You seem a bit lost, like previous questions about impedance, when the impedance is displayed in the TrueZ menu you are using--so you can set there and experiment. What effect you hear from TrueZ will depend greatly on the pickups, cables etc, amp sims, modeled effects, distortion levels etc.

Also see http://community.avid.com/blogs/avid...ut-true-z.aspx

You are trying to record a good clean tone? What clean amp sim are you using in the Eleven Rack? You should be listening to/recording that not the dry signal that it sounds a bit like you are. You can record the dry signal as well for reamping.

You say "Eleven" are you talking eleven rack or Eleven Plugins?

Keeping asking micro-questions is not likely to help you, instead I expect you will actually get useful help here if you instead describe at a high level what you are trying to achieve with what guitar, pickups, physical pedals, amps, cabs, other interfaces, etc. and let folks here give you options. Carefully describe the entire signal flow from pickups to Pro Tools. We get "clean tone", but that does not really help, what example real world amp or performer/song are you trying to sound similar to and a good starting point would be to pick Eleven Rack amp sims that are similar to the real amps used there.

The first thing I would do is get very close to the tone I wanted just playing with the Eleven Rack used stand alone. If you have done that describe your Eleven Rack rig setup, amp settings etc.


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Kinh 08-14-2017 01:33 AM

Re: Do I need a DI box to run into Eleven rack?
 
I have a countryman type 85 active di box and obviously an eleven rack..rack. And mbox pro.
It's clear to me the true-z does little to nothing to the signal to improve or alter the impedance for recording at least for clean presets. I dont use distortion fx so for them I cannot say. I would imagine it caters more to that type of sound than clean but anyway..

My question is simply if I ran a di box into an eleven rack input will the signal be altered in any way. In other words will the eleven rack mess up the di box signal after the outputs of eleven go direct into interface?

My second question is if I run the output of eleven rack (essentially amp out) into my di box (with guitar-in eleven obviously) will I get a purer tone than the above given the di box is last on the chain?

Thanks.

Darryl Ramm 08-14-2017 01:47 AM

Re: Do I need a DI box to run into Eleven rack?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinh (Post 2445039)
I have a countryman type 85 active di box and obviously an eleven rack..rack. And mbox pro.
It's clear to me the true-z does little to nothing to the signal to improve or alter the impedance for recording at least for clean presets. I dont use distortion fx so for them I cannot say. I would imagine it caters more to that type of sound than clean but anyway..

My question is simply if I ran a di box into an eleven rack input will the signal be altered in any way. In other words will the eleven rack mess up the di box signal.

My second question is if I run the output of eleven rack (essentially amp out) into my di box (with guitar-in eleven obviously) will I get a purer tone than the above given the di box is last on the chain?

Thanks.

No and no. As in no don't do either. For input, the Eleven Rack really will not need any more gain. For output, you never run a low impedance signal into a DI box, that is the reverse of what they are designed to do. Just not ever any reason to do either of these things, and they won't help you "get a clean tone".

Start by getting the clean tone you want with the Eleven Rack live and then try recording that either with the Eleven Rack as the interface or going out via S/PDIF into the MBox Pro.. The Eleven Rack can produce some nice clean tones. With all this talk about DIs etc. I'm guessing you are focusing on trying to record and use the dry guitar signal and if so that is likely the cause of problems you are having. Get focused on a good clean wet guitar signal from the Eleven Rack.

Kinh 08-14-2017 03:39 AM

Re: Do I need a DI box to run into Eleven rack?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm (Post 2445040)
No and no. As in no don't do either. For input, the Eleven Rack really will not need any more gain. For output, you never run a low impedance signal into a DI box, that is the reverse of what they are designed to do. Just not ever any reason to do either of these things, and they won't help you "get a clean tone".

Start by getting the clean tone you want with the Eleven Rack live and then try recording that either with the Eleven Rack as the interface or going out via S/PDIF into the MBox Pro.. The Eleven Rack can produce some nice clean tones. With all this talk about DIs etc. I'm guessing you are focusing on trying to record and use the dry guitar signal and if so that is likely the cause of problems you are having. Get focused on a good clean wet guitar signal from the Eleven Rack.

Thank you for your reply.
So What you're saying is run a S/PDIF from eleven not an analogue XLR. If yes, is it possible the reason eleven sounded crap was because I used XLR to mbox to record rather than digital?

And yes, Im trying to record using dry guitar sound but I thought Id try some of eleven's clean simulations given guitar rigs are pretty rubbish.

Darryl Ramm 08-14-2017 03:48 AM

Do I need a DI box to run into Eleven rack?
 
The main reason to use S/PDIF is just to avoid stuff like hum/noise pickup. And unneeded conversion to analog and back to digital.... although fir most stuff I doubt folks can hear anything that.

The reason the Eleven Rack sounded "crap" is you were either using the dry signal when you should have used the wet, or you did not spend time to dial in the amp sim. If I gave you a room of something like a dozen amps and dozen cabs how many days would you spend playing playing with them looking for the right tone...


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Jay_uk 08-14-2017 04:54 AM

Re: Do I need a DI box to run into Eleven rack?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinh (Post 2418973)
So Ive read the manual and it says something about True-Z circuit changing the guitar signal the same "manner as plugging into a real amp or effect." It doesn't say what that impedance value is.

This statement implies that you are unaware of the True-Z setting/selection
In edit mode…the first block is the "input" and thats where the True-Z setting/selection is.
turning the knob underneath it selects different settings.
Auto may be the best default setting.
Couild be you have had it on a low setting, which is not suitable to the pick ups you are using.

panamajack 08-14-2017 11:29 AM

Re: Do I need a DI box to run into Eleven rack?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinh (Post 2418717)
. . . Was wondering if I need to convert to mic level before it goes into Eleven and by doing this I'll have the original tone (the highs) of the guitar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinh (Post 2418973)
. . . True-Z circuit changing the guitar signal the same "manner as plugging into a real amp or effect." It doesn't say what that impedance value is. . .

. . . This supposed True-Z, do I need to activate it? Is is supposed to act as a DI box? Does it bring the high impedance down to low? It's just that there's no difference plugging into my interface vs going through eleven. NONE!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinh (Post 2445039)
I have a countryman type 85 active di box and obviously an eleven rack..rack. And mbox pro.
It's clear to me the true-z does little to nothing to the signal to improve or alter the impedance for recording at least for clean presets. . .

My question is simply

1) if I ran a di box into an eleven rack input will the signal be altered in any way. In other words will the eleven rack mess up the di box signal after the outputs of eleven go direct into interface?

2) My second question is if I run the output of eleven rack (essentially amp out) into my di box (with guitar-in eleven obviously) will I get a purer tone than the above given the di box is last on the chain?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinh (Post 2445043)
. . . What you're saying is run a S/PDIF from eleven not an analogue XLR. If yes, is it possible the reason eleven sounded crap was because I used XLR to mbox to record rather than digital? . . .

There may be some confusion as to the method you have used to experiment with your tone. Your first post above may have been prompted by how you subsequently note you were using the XLR connections from the 11R into the mbox. You would have had to pad the input or use a line level input on the mbox or you would likely get a distorted signal.

After reading your posts, the question remains as to what guitar and which stage amp would you use if you did not own an 11R?

Whatever the answer to that might be will affect your expectations from the 11R.

But your statements above reveal confusion about how to connect your hardware:

You do not need an mbox to record, the audio from the 11R will travel through the USB connection to the computer, assuming your 11R driver is loaded. (Although there are other connections possible.)

If you want to experiment with the mbox, then how you connect the 11R becomes critical. If you connect the XLR output from the 11R to the mbox, you will be sending a line level (slightly boosted signal). If you connect the "amp outputs" you will be sending an instrument level signal, the same level signal your (passive) guitar signal sends, but which may have been processed and converted to "rig output."

The True-Z settings are not for impedance matching, they are for emulating the way certain combo amp input jacks interact with instrument level guitar signals. Whether your guitar has single coil, double coil, passive or active pickups, and even the choice of potentiometers and any capacitors/resistors wired in-line, will affect tone.

Even if you have connected your cables correctly (for whatever purpose), you must additionally select the type of signal being routed to Pro Tools.

To answer your two simple questions:

1) The 11R "guitar in" input jack accepts a high impedance signal, but your Direct box outputs a low impedance signal. The benefit of a low impedance balanced signal is to reduce the hum created by long cable runs. Doing what you are asking is contrary to how the 11R is designed.

2) Searching for a "purer tone" is very subjective. The best direct boxes add no coloration. If you used the correct connections, it would allow longer cable runs from the "amp outs" -- but is unnecessary from the balanced XLR line-level outputs.

Kinh 08-16-2017 01:07 AM

Re: Do I need a DI box to run into Eleven rack?
 
Firstly, thanks for your replies.

So check it out. I did an A B comparison (the eleven rack True-z against a countryman type85 di box) and there was a noticeable difference.
The countryman had more detail, brighter highs, more presence. The eleven was muddier, had warmer tone, more bass, less highs.

Both recorded clean. I'm using an SG, middle position and bridge.
The eleven had all fx off except input (true-z auto 1M ohm +cap)..I also tried it at half way (70k ohm) and virtually no difference.
Same cable for both and just mono out for eleven (as countryman is same). I'm using Main Outs from eleven not Line outs.

Now, see if you can spot the difference.
https://soundcloud.com/matthewcrowe/ab-comparison-saddle-pickup
https://soundcloud.com/matthewcrowe/ab-comparison

Darryl Ramm 08-16-2017 01:48 AM

Do I need a DI box to run into Eleven rack?
 
Again, I am lost why you are focusing on this. Yes listening to comparisons is great., but...

Your first sample is at two different levels, the louder one is likely to sound better. And the rest is just slight differences in EQ.

You don't need a DI box in front of the Eleven Rack, it's the "wrong way" to do stuff. Just set stuff up properly and know what/how to adjust stuff to dial in the tone you want.

I don't have any idea what you are ultimately going for but more commonly folks would get great clean guitar tone with a suitable clean amp not with a dry guitar signal. That wet but clean amp gives you lots of access to dial in what you want, extra EQ, tone shaping, compression, sustain and some pleasant harmonics.


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panamajack 08-16-2017 08:56 AM

Re: Do I need a DI box to run into Eleven rack?
 
Thanks for posting the comparison.

My ears hear a little more bottom in the 11 Rack sample than from the Countryman DI--but both sound like acoustic steel-strings, not what I associate with a Gibson SG. I had an SG Standard a generation ago and liked it best through a Big Muff II.

For what you might be going for, I would reach for a good grade of Martin or Taylor steel string and mic them up with a pair of condensers through a good quality pre-amp.

As an aside, I have a Gibson Chet Atkins nylon/electric with piezo pickups. It sounds a little better run through a Fishman "Aura for nylon" (ascoustic imaging stomp box) with the preset on number "12" -- but it is a subtle improvement.

There is a plugin sold by Sonnox called "Oxford Inflator" that has a similar subtle effect as when the "Aura" is added to the Gibson Chet Atkins. It is not something you notice when it is in use until you remove it, then it sounds like something is missing. There is a Youtube video called "Show and Tell of Sonnox Oxford Inflator" that illustrates the plugin.

shredking 09-18-2021 12:30 PM

Re: Do I need a DI box to run into Eleven rack?
 
When you put the 11R in tuner mode, all effects turn off and you get a clean tone. It will record clean on your DAW and you can shape your tone from there by adding effects.

DonaldR 10-01-2021 04:26 PM

Re: Do I need a DI box to run into Eleven rack?
 
I hope the guy found a solution in the last 4 years :D

albee1952 10-02-2021 09:21 AM

Re: Do I need a DI box to run into Eleven rack?
 
Indeed! Based on what he says, I bet he doesn't(didn't) have the speaker cab emulation turned on:o


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