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-   -   3 Pro Tools issues making me do (& redo) what should be the simplest tasks of any DAW (https://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=415273)

take77 05-06-2021 06:20 AM

3 Pro Tools issues that should be the simplest tasks of any DAW
 
Hello,
I know there are other threads regarding the specific issues I'm about to list but would like to reiterate them.
Specifically, about the difficulty in carrying out simple tasks when composing & arranging MIDI clips.

Here are the main issues that are making my compositional efforts rather difficult:

1. Pro Tools is not pasting/duplicating MIDI clips accurately. (random, not always; happens at various tempos)

I'd like to be able to duplicate each verse & chorus quickly. (I usually Alt + click & drag)
Instead, a random amount of bass, drum & keyboard notes are getting shifted out of line with the original pattern.
Quite often, this happens to only half of an 8 bar section.
Mainly when there are tempo changes in between the copy & paste location. (Instrument tracks are in tick mode)

2. (Formerly #3)

There are times when I simply want to insert or cut a single bar or section.
Cutting & inserting is as easy as it should be but then I discover that all the instrument tracks have again been altered.
I have to inspect each clip and realign about half of the entire composition on every MIDI instrument.

3. Sometimes when pasting a quantized 8 bar clip part onto the grid the first notes/chords of the NEXT quantized clip disappear.
I pay close attention to clip length as indicated in bars, beats & samples (as indicated in the green display) and the part I am moving reads 8 bars and the location being pasted to is 8 bars.
The clip that follows is also quantized so as not to be placed ahead of beat 1.
Still the first chord or note disappears sometimes.

I have to either drag the clip to make them re-appear or re-enter the note/chords all over again. Sometimes I can't even re-add a note on beat 1 without first creating a new consolidated clip.

This also happens when wanting to mute a selection of notes in a clip.
I'll select a group of notes to mute and the first note of the next clip also get muted.

Just wanted to express these things since the past couple of annual renewals didn't fix these issues.
I totally enjoy many other aspects and capabilities of Pro Tools but I'm having to work way too hard at these simple tasks.
And yet I still work at the envisioned composition no matter how long it takes.

I really don't want to re-learn workflows in any other DAW at this point.
Pro Tools has the features to do the job. Those features just aren't working like they used to before PT12.

Kind regards,
Mike

XJENSEN 05-06-2021 07:55 AM

Re: 3 Pro Tools issues making me do (& redo) what should be the simplest tasks of any
 
Thanks for reiterating. I confirm all of these have been a problem for over 5 years now.. :)

Philthy 05-06-2021 09:34 AM

Re: 3 Pro Tools issues making me do (& redo) what should be the simplest tasks of any
 
Really weird, why am I not experiencing these same issues? :confused:

Does this have something to do with ticks vs samples mode for your tracks?

I will say since I don't always quantize all my parts, I've gotten into the habit of using an offset when I cut & paste (so I will often select a region 1/16th note earlier on both the start and the end than what I want to duplicate, so that any note beginnings that fall before the beat are selected.)

I have NEVER experienced random sections of MIDI getting messed up from cut and paste, not once in 20 years of using ProTools. This is over thousands and thousands of MIDI tracks. :confused:

daeron80 05-06-2021 12:29 PM

Re: 3 Pro Tools issues making me do (& redo) what should be the simplest tasks of any
 
PT isn't really the right tool for that job. Or, at least, it's far from the best one. 99% of my MIDI stuff is orchestral, so I don't run into copy/paste and missing note issues very often. But if I were doing your type of work, I'd use Studio One.

take77 05-06-2021 10:42 PM

Re: 3 Pro Tools issues making me do (& redo) what should be the simplest tasks of any
 
Thanks for the confirmation, input & tips guys.

The bummer is that duplicating parts and cut/insert worked fine for me before version 12.
That said, I would like to become a better live player when it come to keyboards & MIDI drums.
My main instrument is guitar and I just draw in drum beat patterns and translate guitar chords to the grid for keyboard. Admittedly, this results in things sounding quantized but it's just for song templates and demos.

I did purchase the current Artist version of Studio One and have a general working knowledge of it but learning another DAW is not really want I want to do.

The conclusion of the matter for me is that I have plenty of guitar work to focus on at this point.
I just have the modest goal of doing 3-4 multi-instrumental demos which have come along well.
It's just taken longer because of these recurring issues.

Having the right attitude about it, I'd like to form a band and just focus on guitar.
But my modest musical setup makes it so easy to shelter in place!

take77 05-06-2021 10:47 PM

Re: 3 Pro Tools issues making me do (& redo) what should be the simplest tasks of any
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Philthy (Post 2601480)
Really weird, why am I not experiencing these same issues? :confused:

Does this have something to do with ticks vs samples mode for your tracks?

I will say since I don't always quantize all my parts, I've gotten into the habit of using an offset when I cut & paste (so I will often select a region 1/16th note earlier on both the start and the end than what I want to duplicate, so that any note beginnings that fall before the beat are selected.)

I have NEVER experienced random sections of MIDI getting messed up from cut and paste, not once in 20 years of using ProTools. This is over thousands and thousands of MIDI tracks. :confused:

Good tips.
I use tick mode for MIDI and mainly sample mode for audio (tick for audio only when using Elastic Audio).
I also noticed that I only have issues with MIDI clips I draw in the piano roll and not with 3rd party MIDI drum pattern libraries. The library patterns never seem to get altered.
I'll record some finger drumming and see if those clips get altered.
Lastly, I realize it's how the tracks sound not how they look on the grid.
But I can hear the discrepancies when lower frequencies get slightly jumbled (kick, toms & bass) or the onset of a keyboard chord gets shifted into another chord.

I've been translating (drawing) really colorful guitar chords onto the piano roll and it sounds sweet combining the various keyboard layers.
But they do in fact keep getting altered (shifted) when alt + dragging a clip to another point in the timeline in all the tempos of my projects so far (post PT12).

take77 05-06-2021 11:37 PM

Re: 3 Pro Tools issues making me do (& redo) what should be the simplest tasks of any
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by daeron80 (Post 2601497)
PT isn't really the right tool for that job. Or, at least, it's far from the best one. 99% of my MIDI stuff is orchestral, so I don't run into copy/paste and missing note issues very often. But if I were doing your type of work, I'd use Studio One.


I did purchase Studio One Artist it for this reason but get nauseated using a different UI & relearning in S1.
PT has the features I need for the tasks (Duplicate, Cut/Insert etc.). Tick mode just doesn't seem to be working right under the hood at some tempos.

innesireinar 05-07-2021 02:55 AM

Re: 3 Pro Tools issues making me do (& redo) what should be the simplest tasks of any
 
Still using PT11 for midi programming because of this. Unfortunately there are no other daws that are comparable to PT at the mixer stage/level.

sleshnyc@gmail.com 05-07-2021 11:04 AM

Re: 3 Pro Tools issues making me do (& redo) what should be the simplest tasks of any
 
So i do a ton of midi and copy paste etc and never have these problems except 2, and I can tell you that it's because of quantizing and where the note starts. If you're working in grid mode and grab a bar, but the first note of that bar actually starts before beat one, then when you copy that bar that note gets left behind, which is why you need to drag to get it back.

As far as copying and everything gets messed up, i've never had this happen. To solve problem 2 you can quantize or grab before and after.

Obviously make sure you're not in shuffle mode when editing. But if you're not quantizing, then really the reason things are sounding off is that each time you duplicate if you're not grabbing in grid mode you could be moving things further away from the click. Esp for drums, quantize is your friend.




Quote:

Originally Posted by take77 (Post 2601461)
OK I'm going to be as warm-hearted as possible about this.
I know there are other threads regarding the specific issues I'm having but I would like to reiterate them.
Specifically, about the difficulty in carrying out simple tasks when composing & arranging MIDI clips.

I'm primarily a guitarist so my guitar tracks aren't entirely subject to these difficulties.
But it would be nice to get on with things when getting the MIDI accompaniment & arrangements for a clearly envisioned song down.

Here are the main issues that are making my compositional efforts a painstaking experience:

1. Pro Tools is not pasting/duplicating MIDI clips accurately.
A lot of effort has been put into the bass, drums & keyboard tracks and it would be a joy be able to re-arrange and modify these sections with ease.

When arriving at a new or better part for an existing section, I'd like to be able to duplicate each verse & chorus quickly.
Instead, a random amount of bass, drum & keyboard notes are getting shifted out of line with the original pattern.
Quite often, this happens to only half of an 8 bar section.
This is enough for things to sound jumbled or flammed at the transitions.

2. Sometimes when pasting a part onto the grid the first notes/chords of the next clip disappear.
I have to either drag the clip to make them re-appear or re-enter the note/chords all over again. Sometimes I can't even re-add a note on beat 1 without first creating a new consolidated clip.

This also happens when wanting to mute a select portion of notes in a clip.
I'll select a group of notes to mute and the first notes of the next clip also get muted.

3. Lastly, there are times when I simply want to insert or cut a single bar or section.
Cutting & inserting is as easy as it should be but I then discover that all my MIDI tracks have once again been altered.
A 2 second job turns into two hours of work all over again.
I have to inspect each clip and realign about half of the entire composition on every MIDI instrument.

I totally enjoy many other aspects and capabilities of Pro Tools but I'm having to work way too hard at these simple tasks.
And yet I still work at the envisioned composition no matter how long it takes.

I'll always be a PT user because I don't want to re-learn workflows in any other DAW at this point.
Please reward this user loyalty on the part of myself & others with a release that addresses these specific issues.

Kind regards,
Mike


take77 05-07-2021 04:02 PM

Re: 3 Pro Tools issues making me do (& redo) what should be the simplest tasks of any
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sleshnyc@gmail.com (Post 2601563)
So i do a ton of midi and copy paste etc and never have these problems except 2, and I can tell you that it's because of quantizing and where the note starts. If you're working in grid mode and grab a bar, but the first note of that bar actually starts before beat one, then when you copy that bar that note gets left behind, which is why you need to drag to get it back.

As far as copying and everything gets messed up, i've never had this happen. To solve problem 2 you can quantize or grab before and after.

Obviously make sure you're not in shuffle mode when editing. But if you're not quantizing, then really the reason things are sounding off is that each time you duplicate if you're not grabbing in grid mode you could be moving things further away from the click. Esp for drums, quantize is your friend.

Thank you for the reply.

The main issue I'm having right now is trying to cut/insert a couple sections without having to realign everything at random locations.
Because of doing this simple task, I've just spent nearly an hour realigning all the note/chord shifts.

I'd just like to modify the section tempos, cut/insert at a few locations and move on.
Instead I've had to inspect every clip knowing that, sure enough, notes get shifted out of groove with other tracks.

Seriously, I had ONE 4 bar sustain section that I cut.
I never had this problem before PT12.
The simple task of cutting/inserting 1 bar = All of my MIDI tracks getting misaligned at various points in the timeline.

Before PT12, I could duplicate, cut/insert and change tempos without discrepancy. Basically, ANYTHING I could conceive I could achieve when I started using Pro Tools back in version 10/11.

None of these issues should happen to patterns drawn directly onto the grid or quantized patterns.
In fact, the reason I quantize is so I can identify the the misalignment that I know will happen.

As regards notes disappearing, it's usually the 1st note of the NEXT measure that disappears.
A quantized 8 bar copy should fit just right in a 8 bar space in grid/bar mode without going beyond.
This validates the whole point that something is not right under the hood and that the current versions can't seem to calculate or carry out the simplest task.


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