What is your opinion on copy protection?

[soundsurfr]

Check out this link:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/25274.html

This is becoming a really big issue now that CD sales are down and you can link losses to copying/Mp3 sharing.

What do you guys think?

[da BaSsTaRd!]

do you think they tried to purposefully crash imacs with that nonsense? steve jobs and his ipod are the music industry's public enemy #1.

whatever the cause, its funny that it only crashes macs....

[soundsurfr]

OK, now check this out....

http://industryclick.com/magnewsarticle.asp?newsarticleid=315272&%3bmagazineid=33&%3bSiteID=15

Am I the only one who's confused here?

[Jopry]

Originally posted by soundsurfr:
OK, now check this out....

<a href="http://industryclick.com/magnewsarticle.asp?newsarticleid=315272&%3bmagazineid=33&%3bSiteID=15 (http://industryclick.com/magnewsarticle.asp?newsarticleid=315272&%3bmagazineid=33&%3bSiteID=15)" target="_blank">http://industryclick.com/magnewsarticle.asp?newsarticleid=315272&%3bmagazineid=33&%3bSiteID=15[/URL]</a>

Am I the only one who's confused here?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn't it amazing that only studies commissioned by RRIA find cd sales to be down because of online downloads? Perhaps if the record industry would focus on delivering good albums and music(the entire disc, not one or two songs) and they didn't keep the prices of cd's up around 20$ a pop, people would care a lot more about the music industry's survival. For the last roughly sixty years, the major labels and FM radio have worked together to use and abuse any artist they could to make a profit. They have held a monopoly over consumer's heads with a vengence, holding back superior consumer products via high product taxes and maintaining a bloated product price. I have no sympathy for the RRIA or any labels, they put themselves in the position they're in...they can either change their business or die.

[bonti]

There always will be simple solutions for difficult problems :)http://www.chip.de/praxis_wissen/praxis_wissen_8725919.html
And here's something more about copy protection:http://www.boycott-riaa.com/

[Ultraslide]

Ripping your CDs to your hard disk is cool and easy way to enjoy your music.
Sharing your mp3s over the internet for all to download or downloading them yourself IS STEALING!
Plain and simple.
You can try to rationalize your theft any way you like but it is stealing. You could say that the record companies are screwing artists, and you'd be right. But those artists signed those contracts giving up all rights to thier music. If you download to try to correct that wrong you are still stealing.

As an amatuer musician I make all my music available for free download thru MP3.com, and sometimes on my homepage. If people want free and legal music there is plenty out there to be had.

I dont think copy protected CDs are real CDs in the eyes of Philips, who licences the format. So hopefully enough people will get burned (no pun intended) that the matter ends up in court and the copy-protected CDs will go away. Or people wont buy them and the idea will implode.
Either way.
But the record companies are going to try to find ways to stop illegal sharing. The new Wilco record was voluntarily and legally made available early on mp3 and debuted on billboard at #12 !!!! This shows that the hype the record companies are pushing is B.S. Sales are down because most of the stuff they push hard just plain sucks, and CD prices are up 10-25% over the past 2 years.

Personally I dont believe any of the B.S., from the record companies or the people stealing music.

the 'slide images/icons/mad.gif

[xnorfin]

I have no sympathy for the record companies because the majority of the bands they sign are good for one song, and that's it. These record companies know that they can make a couple of million dollars off OUR hard earned money, and give us crap in return. You don't have to be talented anymore, you just have to be lucky. Bands, and musicians are now ever increasingly expendable!!!

[Xochi]

...And if there come the singers and the dancers and the flute players, buy of their gifts also.
For they too are gatherers of fruit and frankincense, and that which they bring, though fashioned of dreams, is raiment and food for your soul. -Kahlil Gibran"The Prophet" 1932

[Stone Knife]

Aside from the quality of the copy, why is making cassettes of a recording OK and making a CD of it 'stealing'? That is the way it is, isn't it?

The copy protection thing will not work, hasn't worked.

This comes to a matter of degree- If you buy a recording and make one or two copies for a couple friends, (or one for car, keep the original safe) that's one thing-

But,
Posting material (that isn't yours) on the 'Net is broadcasting and should provide royalties for the artists, in spite of the quality being the modern equivelant of cassettes.

[QuikDraw]

Stone Knife,

That's the best ethical summary I've ever read concerning digital copying. I couldn't say it any better and I don't think it could be said better by anyone.

images/icons/cool.gif

Mike

[Ultraslide]

Originally posted by Stone Knife:
This comes to a matter of degree- If you buy a recording and make one or two copies for a couple friends, (or one for car, keep the original safe) that's one thing-
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you make copies for other people in any format, that is stealing. You are violating copyright laws plain and simple. The record companies never cared much about cassette copies becayse the quality is lower, the medium is temporary and there is no mass distribution methods for cassettes as easy as Morpheus or Audio Galaxy.
It makes me sad to think that soooo many people have little, to no concept of the Fair Use rights granted in the Sony Betamax case. And the fact that the DMCA seeks to remove those rights.
You can legally make copies for yourself in any format. Give the copy away to someone else and its stealing.
P2P networks (like Morpheus etc.)could open up a world of information to the poor of this world but instead they are mostly used to steal music and software.
I think trying to destroy my fair use rights by "breaking" the CD format is a crime in itself. It denies me the right to make legitimate copies and compilations for my own use.
But if you make copies for friends you are still stealing. The record companies will jack prices and make recording contracts even more restrictive than they already are.
If you want to protect your "Fair Use" rights then I suggest you swing by www.eff.org (http://www.eff.org) and make a contribution.
You see, its not about free music or the ability to make copies for friends , its about your rights as a consumer and a musician.

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images/icons/mad.gif

[Dreamware]

I have never ever supported illegal duplication of CD's. As a musician myself I understand and always support the artist by buying there album. When friends ask me to borrow my CD's to copy them I always tell them to go out and purchase their own copy, and of course they are shocked because this is such a common thing today. I really have never had respect for people that download MP3's and never by one single album, it just make me very frustrated that some people don't support musicians. Now the whole thing with downloading Metallica MP3's off Napster, people give this lame excuse that they have allot of money and it doesn't matter, its the principal that counts and the fact that you are stealing someones music.

[yavuzj]

Originally posted by Dreamware:
I have never ever supported illegal duplication of CD's. As a musician myself I understand and always support the artist by buying there album.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Eventhough that is right, Record Companies make the most of the profit and their taste got really bad lately. They deserve to go bankrupt. All of them. Then, when musicians take control, I support copy protection to the end.
There should be some kind of listen before buy option though. If i sell CDs directly form my website, I would definitely include a couple of tracks fopr people to listen directly from my site.

[Dreamware]

Originally posted by yavuzj:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Dreamware:
I have never ever supported illegal duplication of CD's. As a musician myself I understand and always support the artist by buying there album.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Eventhough that is right, Record Companies make the most of the profit and their taste got really bad lately. They deserve to go bankrupt. All of them. Then, when musicians take control, I support copy protection to the end.
There should be some kind of listen before buy option though. If i sell CDs directly form my website, I would definitely include a couple of tracks fopr people to listen directly from my site.<hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well I support the bands I like which do not get enough recognition. You are right about the general music industry though theree absolutley full of crap. Most of the bands they put out there have no talent what so ever, boy bands come and go and don't last. eventually people will get tired of this and move on. Slowly more rock bands are coming about with talent. Forget the bubble gum pop, leave that for teenage girls.

[Stone Knife]

There was a huge misconception moved forward with the sentence Why should I give ~$20 to a label who in turn give a buck maybe to the artist <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The actual amounts artists receive for a $16 retail CD is probably closer to 6 cents. If there were some way to send another 6 cents directly to the artist for a copy I'd sure do it. MCI and their cronies can take a bite out of a northbound horse.

BTW, as long as we seem to have some copyright crusaders here, images/icons/wink.gif what happens when you go to your dentist's office and they're playing the local 'soft hits' radio station throughout the office?

Do you run to the phone and call BMI and ASCAP? You should! That office owes 'em big time, you better believe it!
That office is using the artist's work to enhance that businesses' ambiance. Do you suppose they spend a single dime each year to BMI or ASCAP?
Don't bet on it! This is stealing on a scale that surpasses anything that 1 casette copy could ever hope to approach; it's in a different league, entirely.

What about running a VCR while a movie is playing on your TV? Now you own a copy, and you didn't pay the AFTRA people a cent. What's that?

I'm all for artists being paid lots more than they are now for their work, no arguement there... I just hope we don't get any more carried away with the holier-than-thou's, because a couple of the above posts seem little too-goody-to-be-true and just doesn't sound like real life to me, y'know?

The record companies steal so much more from their own artists that getting upset about a casette or DAT or CD copy of a record that you paid full retail for is just so unnecessary. I know of one instance where the record company sold several MILLION copies of a CD and didn't pay the artists anything. On the books the sales never happened. That's where the stealing's really at. images/icons/smile.gif

PS this goes way beyond a 'respect' issue, as the post below tries to minimize. That's so far off base it's impossible to quantify.

[Ultraslide]

Ok folks. We all know the record companies run a virtual monopoly and they dont treat thier artists with the respect they deserve.
But ....
If you copy CDs or mp3s for a buddy, you are STEALING !
Get it?
Thier wrongs dont justify your wrongs ...
I am a man of great mercy, but only when its deserved.
Courtney makes good points ... but I've met the woman and she is a spoiled primadonna who is just pissed because she signed a bogus record contract. She had plenty of lawyers and mngmnt to help her but she took control and got screwed.
I have no mercy for her.
Steve Albini makes good points ... but he will slam the industry that feeds him. If you read his diatribe you'll realize that he IS the trendy producer that makes millions while his bands starve.
I have no mercy for him.
I do have mercy for the young and impetuous who sign record deals and wind up with nothing because of a corrupt system that rewards the corrupt and those devoid of any real talent.
The system must change but stealing music and trying to rationalize it will only make things worse.
Here's an idea ... stop buying major label records !!!! Think you can do it? Yeah, I didnt think so ... me niether. Ok then how about supporting your local independent record store instead of BestBuy. How about going to a live show and buying a T-shirt. How about buying local music in your area.
All these things will help improve the system much more than pirating music and trying to rationalize it.

Ok, so this is has been a harsh rant. Just to clarify, I agree with all that has been said in this thread. My point being ... virtue and persistance will win this battle for musicians and consumers. We finally have the tools to take the supply-chain monopoly away from the majors. Lets not blow it because our goals are selfish or short sighted.

For more on what a record label could be check out www.royalfuzzrecords.com. (http://www.royalfuzzrecords.com.) My good friend Steve set this up as a music collective and he has been doing real well. Its great idea who's time had come. An actual partnership of artists and ditribution. Oh yeah ... theres plenty of free and legal music available to. images/icons/grin.gif

the 'slide

[da BaSsTaRd!]

Originally posted by Ultraslide:
The system must change but stealing music and trying to rationalize it will only make things worse. Here's an idea ... stop buying major label records !!!! Think you can do it? Yeah, I didnt think so ... <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i think i can and its as simple as using kazaa.

look, the only way you can get these scumbags to change is to hit 'em where it hurts the most: their way-too-fat bank accounts. do you think the record companies will change as long as:
1) nobody is stopping them?
2) they're still stuffing their way-too-fat bank accounts?

the answer is no. i agree with yavuz. i'll support copyright protection when there's a level playing field for the artists.

[da BaSsTaRd!]

and by the way, music sales went down because the world economy took a nose dive and music sales are a cyclical business subject to peoples "spare change".

[badperson]

Couple of things to touch on;

1) No one's mentioned this in this thread, I don't know if I'm correct or not. In the 80's, when cassettes were introduced, the record companies did throw a fit, and even though you can't copy cassettes on the same scale as mp3's, I believe cassettes were the #1 selling format for a bit. I think the way it was worked out legally, was that cassette manufacturers had to pay a certain amount of money to the Recording Industry, I don't know in what form or how it was divided, but that's my memory.

Anyone else remember?

2) When people say record sales are down, I'd be curious to see those figures broken down. My guess is that mainstream music has become so homogeneous, that people are either defecting to independant labels, or sticking to classic rock, r & b, rap, etc.

I'd be curious to see how much record companies sell by genre, period, etc.

Any thoughts?

-bp

[Jopry]

Originally posted by badperson:
Couple of things to touch on;

1) No one's mentioned this in this thread, I don't know if I'm correct or not. In the 80's, when cassettes were introduced, the record companies did throw a fit, and even though you can't copy cassettes on the same scale as mp3's, I believe cassettes were the #1 selling format for a bit. I think the way it was worked out legally, was that cassette manufacturers had to pay a certain amount of money to the Recording Industry, I don't know in what form or how it was divided, but that's my memory.

Anyone else remember?
-bp<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are thinking of the record industry having a fit over DATs going into the consumer market. The RIAA won a suit to force a tax (more than doubling the price) on blank DAT tapes and require manufacturers to place a copy protection scheme on comsumer DAT players/recorders. This tax went to the record labels, not the artist btw. The record industry doesn't give a rat's #$$ about "The Artist", only it's own pocketbook and the RIAA is their legal lobbyist group they put in action to protect it. I too would like to see some raw sales data, but good luck getting that. I can only speak for me about downloading mp3s: if I download a song and I like it, I go buy the disc. How is this different than going to Blockbuster Music or Tower Records and listening to the disc before you buy it? If the product is good, you buy it. If it sucks, you don't. Yes, I know that many people don't buy the disc even if they liked the mp3, but I don't see the difference between people who copy a cd from a friend or something and people that download it. Furthermore, if the disc has only one or two decent songs on it, Why should I give ~$20 to a label who in turn give a buck maybe to the artist for a crappy album I won't listen too anyways? The only reason the labels are fighting mp3s is because they don't (can't) control them and in the end, if the labels can't figure out a viable option (and pricing scheme) to mp3's with a good delivery method, their days are numbered.

[Dreamware]

I can tell you why there record sales are down, its because the groups they put together have no talent.

[soundsurfr]

Some comments, cause I'm in a bad mood -

First, we all pay a royalty to the record companies when we buy blank digital media. The record industry was able to get the courts to grant them a royalty on blank CD-R sales based on the premise that piracy WILL occur. That's right folks, we're guilty until proven innocent. So... who's stealing from whom?

Second, the record industry has already been caught stealing from the buying public, and is paying fines after losing a major lawsuit having to do with price fixing of CD's and other music media. You don't see this publicized very often because the media machine driven by the RIAA is bigger than the media machine driven by us regular folks.

Third, the recording industry is now faced with a new technology that it can't cope with. Instead of reorganizing themselves and their cash flows to take advantage of the internet and MP3 technology, the industry (predictably) is trying to legislate it away. It won't happen. Horse owners tried to do that when cars were invented, and look where it got them. What we as artists need to do is work together to figure out creative ways that we can be compensated for our work in this new environment. Trying to enforce the old rules on the new system is like trying to stop an ocean wave by holding our hands out in front of us.

Finally, if you've still got a hankerin' to be sympathetic to the industry moguls, go back and read "Courtney Does the Math" by Courtney Love:

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/

Or "The Problem With Music" by Steve Albini:

http://www.negativland.com/albini.html

Those should put you in a better frame of mind.

[STUDIO-DE-ARIEL]

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Intelectual property rights are at issue here. I dont want my music being played for free or stolen. There are laws. Yes the laws do protect businesses. This is capitalism it makes our country what it is. I dont like mp3's in general and have only downloaded 2 on this site both Roy Howells at his offer and I was impressed. oh yes Big red Button had somthing going. I really wanted to play some lead to it but declined because I thought a liability might come up. I guess we all have to Grapple with this ourselves as individuals. And i know that internet connected computers have the capability of reporting what songs are ripped off of cd's. Also what is legitamatly owned on systems as well when will the software police knock on your door? I dont know but the fines make it more and more worth while for systems to exist which make you liable to the court of the jurisdiction
of the manufacturer when you say you accept. So if you believe it or not fair or unfair there are laws and they can take you to task for it be warned

[soundsurfr]

Originally posted by STUDIO-DE-ARIEL:
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Intelectual property rights are at issue here. I dont want my music being played for free or stolen. There are laws. Yes the laws do protect businesses. This is capitalism it makes our country what it is. I dont like mp3's in general and have only downloaded 2 on this site <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's not against the law to download MP3's from the internet. It's also not against the law to rip songs from CD's and put them on your hard drive. Whether you like MP3's or not, they are the present medium of choice for millions of listeners. We as artists have to get with the program and figure out how we're going to protect ourselves in the new world. I don't think copy protected CD's are the right answer. That will just become an ever-escalating, expensive game of "beat the hacker". And paying royalties on blank media is just robbery. Period. There's gotta be a better way.

On a different tack, it makes me cringe to hear that you wanted to play lead on a song but declined because of *liability* concerns. In a way that's what this conversation is all about. The laws have insidiously made their way into our art. Big business benefits and the music suffers.

Play the freaking lead. If you can play decent lead guitar, and I'll wager you can, the world will be a slightly better place with that lead on tape. What are you worried about? The song breaks into the Billboard top 40 and you don't get paid? Yeah that would suck. Wouldn't it suck worse if the song breaks and some other dude played lead? Whether he gets paid or not, he's in a better position than you are at that point.

I'm ranting because I've been through this crap. I've sat in law offices across the table from musicians who I admired, but whose lawyers are now screaming in my face that I'm not worth two points on the record. Actually, I'm not worth any points on the record, but maybe I'll get one and I should be damn pleased with that, 'cause who the heck is Soundsurfr anyway? My lawyer is yelling back calling them all greedy pigs. That was our pre-production contract negotiation.

Then the next morning we're all supposed to go into the studio with big smiles on our faces and do all this back-slapping and get our creative juices flowing and make a hit record together. Cause we're all buds, ya know?

They never told me about this when I was taking guitar lessons. images/icons/shocked.gif

[QuikDraw]

Copy protection is a joke anyway! I can record any sound I can hear. What, are they going to protect the music to the point where I can't even hear it? That would be good. No matter what the copy protection scheme is, if I can hear it I can record it! And recording as a .WAV from the analog outs of the CD player sounds better than any .MP3 I've ever heard anyway!

No, I'm not a pirate. And I don't like pirates! I don't download or trade .MP3s, nor do I use software that I don't own a license for. I also never traded copied cassettes. It's just not right!

On the other hand, there's nothing like word of mouth to sell a product. I hope people are making .MP3s of my material and giving them to their friends. The more people that hear my music the better. When enough people hear and like my music, if it's that good they'll want to buy the "real thing" instead of listening to a cheap copy! It's free advertising for me. Okay, so I've only sold 6 CDs in a year and a half! Maybe I AM being ripped off! Or maybe my music just sucks.

Copy protection is a joke! I will not knowingly purchase intentionally damaged products!! You won't find any copy protected CDs in my collection!

Mike