Let's pay for the wish list.

[Princeton]

I don't think we are ever going to get DIGI to devote the same number of resources to developing the LE PC platform. The MAC market far outweighs the PC market.
So what if all interested users on the PC DUC paid $??.00 or more per month for one year, so extra DIGI resources can be hired to bridge the gap between the MAC and PC platforms. Assuming we have a few thousand interested users, we could raise a significant amount of cash for this venture. If DIGI does not support the idea, we could form a consortium under which we could hire expert programmers to provide this development. And perhaps DIGI would allow the consortium register with them as a third party developer.

What do you guys think.

[mattm]

i use PT LE and TDM on a mac quite often. i completely understand (even referred to it myself once) the market share argument but i still refuse to pay for parity.

after all, digidesign charged me the same amount for the 001 i use on my PC as they charged my friend for the 001 he uses on his mac. how do we look at this? did he subsidize pc development or did we get ripped?

i can wait but i'm not gonna pay!

~matt

[Princeton]

Hey Mattm,
I understand your point but the truth be said, Digi is never going to bridge the great divide between the PC and MAC platform. So we have a choice of complaining as much as we can, switch to a MAC or find a way to solve the problem. Needless to say, I choose the latter.

[mattm]

Originally posted by Princeton:
I understand your point but the truth be said, Digi is never going to bridge the great divide between the PC and MAC platform. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">how can you be so sure?

[Princeton]

It's the law of averages, I hope Digi proves me wrong. Where your dollars are, there your heart would be also.

[mattm]

i implore you to remember that digidesign has only been involved with the PC for a couple of years now. when you make a comparison to steinberg or emagic, digidesign have done remarkably well to get PC support to the point it is at today and i believe, now that they have only to develop software for a single PC platform, that changes will be implimented faster then ever and parity will soon become a reality. as long as third-party developers keep up their end of the bargain.

[da BaSsTaRd!]

Originally posted by Princeton:
The MAC market far outweighs the PC market.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">what on earth makes you believe that? i would be willing to bet the cost of 1 PTHD setup that digi made more $$ (gross sales and/or profit) from the pc market than from the mac market (on the condition that digi allows me to audit their sales, of course images/icons/wink.gif ). sales of 001s to pc party peoples are going like gangbusters. its basically floating avid.

i also refuse to pay for platform parity for the reasons matt listed above... i gotta admit, though, the idea of a "user owned" digi sounds pretty intriguing.

[Stone Knife]

Princeton
Please-
Let's have some facts/sources on claims like this. Can you cite a single one? Any sales figures for 001Mac/001PC? images/icons/wink.gif

Without documentation, it's just buzzes and clicks to me.

[Princeton]

If my claims are not valid then how do you explain the PC development lagging behind. Creating parity is not rocket science, Digi clearly does devote more resources to the MAC platform. If the PC platform had the same resources, we would not have this arguement. And please spare me this "digidesign has only been involved with the PC for a couple of years" arguement. A couple of years is more than enough time to catch up. Also if the sales of 001 were really going like gangbusters, what investor would devote the least amount of resources to a product "going like gangbusters". If the numbers were really what you say they are, the third party developers would jump on it also.

[da BaSsTaRd!]

Originally posted by Princeton:
Also if the sales of 001 were really going like gangbusters, what investor would devote the least amount of resources to a product "going like gangbusters". <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">not many investors would, apparently, and it shows in their stock price.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=AVID&d=c&k=c1&a=v&p=s&t=5y&l=on&z=m&q=l

[Stone Knife]

Still waiting for those hard facts not conjecture based on inference! images/icons/grin.gif

[mattm]

Originally posted by Princeton:
And please spare me this "digidesign has only been involved with the PC for a couple of years" arguement. A couple of years is more than enough time to catch up.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">one must 'test the water' before making a firm commitment. i was also referring to the less than adequate efforts made by the competition when they first ported their products to the windows platform.

another thing to note is that, contrary to popular belief, software does not get written overnight. i'd hold my tongue until i'd seen the upcoming release before making too many sweeping statements.

[mattm]

these aren't sales figures from digidesign. far from it. i am fairly good friends with an employee at my local pro audio store. he specialises in pro audio DAW's, in particular protools. his rough estimate is that they've sold about three hundred 001's. at best he claims not more than fifty of those sales have been installed in PC's. going like gangbusters, huh?

with reference to TDM/HD sales vs. 001, one studio i work at has protools systems worth sixty 001 sales. there are another two studios i frequent, each with similar setups. between those three studios, their collective spending on digidesign products is equivalent to almost two hundred 001 sales. imagine the amount spent on TDM/HD systems by professional and project studios worldwide, not to mention independent producers/engineers and film post houses, compared to that spent on 001's.

i wouldn't argue that the 001 probably produces more stale long-term income but in up front capital, i'd speculate that it barely scratches the surface when compared to TDM/HD spending.

[Princeton]

One of the biggest setbacks in purchasing the 001 in my opinion, is the "feeling of being on your own". In many cases when the purchase of a competing product is anticipated, one finds that there does exist a barage of third party plugins, add-ons, freeware, etc that complement such purchase. On the other hand, that is not the case with 001. Many decisions are based on this fact.

Digidesign however, does have a compelling product that does indeed lead to the purchase of the higher priced TDM system. Might I contemplate that Digi uses the LE platform as a lure? hence the availability of just enough on the LE platform to create that unquenchable desire to defect to the TDM system.

Just another assumption.

[da BaSsTaRd!]

Originally posted by mattm:
...i am fairly good friends with an employee at my local pro audio store. he specialises in pro audio DAW's, in particular protools. his rough estimate is that they've sold about three hundred 001's. at best he claims not more than fifty of those sales have been installed in PC's... <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">bah humbug! that's rediculous.

1) there are 2 kinds of music stores - those that serve the mass market and those that serve the "pro" market. is your friend's store a pro market store? that would explain more sales of higher end equipment and more sales to mac.

2) many, many people buy over the internet and by catalog now. its cheaper in the US to do that usually because there's no tax on out-of-state mail order sales. but its also just plain convenient, especially if you live in a rural area.

3) look at the growth of users on this board as an indicator of who's buying.

4) ask digi.

[Xman]

Originally posted by mattm:
1...yes, there are two kinds of music stores in the USA - those that sell music store crap to people making demos in their apartments and those that sell equipment we can make records with. i refer to the latter.

2...sure, i've done a few records on a 001 but do you think i would even breathe near this computer where a serious album was concerned? not for more than the internerd, that's for sure!

any serious audio production i am involved with does not leave the mac, assuming it makes it off tape in the first place![/QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1...Well*lol* ...I guess you've got a strange situation in the US if you have suppliers that can't deliver both crap and good stuff*s* ...what you call crap CAN be fully functional to do pro recordings on -it's up to the capability's of the engineer....

2...i guess that you(like myself) do pro recordings... ...if we're talking TDM I would never consider WinNT over Mac ...and as we both know?-there isn't really that big difference between Le/TDM that makes the differnces in pricing acceptable ....even in a prostudio with TDM, -if you're working with sessions with trackcounts on like 20-24 tracks you could easily get the same endresult with the Digi and a good ADATinterface...
No offend but I think you could keep a little lower profile (if you are a proffessional) ...working in larger studio's doesn't make you better than anyone else on this forum ...there's a lot of pros in here which happens to have a Digi for homeusage.... and I bet there's alot of home-recording-guys here that could actually work proffessional as well if they got the right connections...

+agree with daBasstard ...I actuall think the Pc platform is bigger on the Digi -can't see ANY benefit from running the Digi on a Mac ...and as you probably also have noticed? -if you run Digi on a dedicated PC -Win98SE is just as stable as the MAC OS...

[Aussie169]

I really don't see how any one salesperson can make a statement about overall percentages when a) they are only a small percentage of the market, and b) both platforms come in the same box.
The only semi-accurate way to guage percentage usage is with Digi's registration file..... but then, not everyone registers!!

Not trying to flame anyone here, this is just the way I see it.

Mark

[da BaSsTaRd!]

Originally posted by mattm:
...sure, i've done a few records on a 001 but do you think i would even breathe near this computer where a serious album was concerned? not for more than the internerd, that's for sure!

any serious audio production i am involved with does not leave the mac, assuming it makes it off tape in the first place!<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">the merits of audio quality and performance on a mac or a pc are debatable, but that's beside the point altogether. you're totally throwing in a red herring here.

the point was what is digi selling more of. sales of the 001 to the pc market is floating avid and i bet if you did a little research, you'd see the same thing.

by the way, your comment sounded a little elitist, don't you think? God forbid someone should have some fun recording a song...

[da BaSsTaRd!]

damn, got beat to the punch twice...

[Princeton]

Like most other threads, we've got off track, but while we're on the subject, I don't think there's any difference whatsoever between the qualities you can get from LE on a PC or a MAC. The issue is that there are much more tools available on the MAC side of the isle as opposed to the PC.

Secondly, for those who think the LE platform is not good enough for "professional recordings", you must be highly mistaken or mislead. Tape or no tape, if you know what you’re doing you can replicate any desirable tonal quality.
The restrictions we face can be overcome with the engineer’s ingenuity, if he has any. Track count can be an issue but many of today’s recordings rarely exceed 24 tracks.
One can certainly attain very high quality recordings if what I call the three E's are in place.
1, Engineer - the engineer if experienced enough can get the best out of his setup.
2, Environment - assuming your recording is being done in an acoustically sound environment, or at least the engineer is not fighting excessive abnormalities with his acoustics, he should be able to capture the essence of what he is recording or mixing to reflect the best that particular production has to offer.
3, Equipment - in this case the LE platform is very adequate to provide top-notch editing and recording. But if the engineer does not have the knowledge to get the best out of the system, too bad, he cannot produce a better recording even if he had a TDM system.

All that said, the producer has an equally important role, but since we are not addressing the producers role, I'll leave his necessities out of the thread.

[Okion]

Originally posted by da BaSsTaRd!:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Princeton:
Also if the sales of 001 were really going like gangbusters, what investor would devote the least amount of resources to a product "going like gangbusters". <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">not many investors would, apparently, and it shows in their stock price.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q ?s=AVID&d=c&k=c1&a=v&p=s&t=5y&l=on&z=m&q=l (http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=AVID&d=c&k=c1&a=v&p=s&t=5y&l=on&z=m&q=l)<hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is my opinion that investors are shying away from avid specifically because of their Mac-centric approach.

I would be an investor iff they started treating the PC market with some respect, and opened their system to market standards.

What I don't understand is why the suits in companies like this never seem to learn the lesson even though it is the #1 talked about failure scenario in the software industry.

The most likely reason for the disparity between the two systems is a Mac-zealot attitude in the company culture. It is hard for someone so "religiously" dedicated to a platform to truly see the possibilities. I was %100 behind Apple and the Mac platform until they simply lost the advantage.

Of course Digi is on of the last holdouts to continue to create an artificial advantage. Sooner or later Emagic, Cakewalk or Cubase are going to close the gap in usability and mind share (I don't personally believe there is a -significant- difference in performance). At that point Digi will have nothing but a dwindling tribe of zealots, in a very similar way to Apple's.

The sound reason is probably talent and training within Digi. If they do not have as many people who are as proficient with the PC as they do with Mac, the product is bound to suffer. The silly thing is that you don't need experienced PC developers, all you really need is proficient developers who are willing to write code for the PC.

I hope that the XP version comes out real soon and proves me wrong. In the mean time, I AM willing to pay more for the same thing the Apple guys are getting, and I AM willing to work as a "consortium' developer.

[OxXSnOXxO]

I wouldn't pay them any money , they already got all they are going to from me (900$) , I have already spent enough money on my setup. They should support the PC equally as they do MAC's because not everyone has 5,000 $ to spend on a MAC just for audio purposes. What will eventually happen if they do not support PC's more , is simply they will go out of business. People won't buy their products, Only the "Professionals" will and there aren't that many PRO's out there compared to your normal everyday home recording person. Either way there are more PC owners than there are MAC owners out in the world so why does'nt Digidesign do us all a big favor and spend their time and money into support instead of selling products and then not focus on support. images/icons/confused.gif

[Princeton]

I think Digi should have an all inclusive policy that gives equal development dollars to all major operating systems. The best way to compete is to give customers every reason not to go to the competition. This surely is not their present strategy. I'm sure Digi wishes to maintain their uniqueness in the world of digital audio production, but that is increasingly becoming a myth as other products continually seek to close the devide.

[OxXSnOXxO]

Princeton , images/icons/frown.gif you make me want to cry , that was beautiful. Good choice of words , and yes there are MANY of other products out there that are cheaper and can do the same thing as the 001 but also have BETTER SUPPORT than Digidesign has.

[citi]

I'm gonna go ahead and chime in for a second. Yes, there are apps that do the same thing as pt. Yes there are apps already on xp...yes, there are people using 192khz recording hardware and not using PTHD....

but............

You don't buy PT because of what it can't do, you buy it for what it can. Cross Platform compatibility, sessions that can be loaded into a pro pt studio without a hassle or exporting aif files. Great sound editing....solid software and great hardware (for the price) and kick ass people on the duc!

This debate is really getting sour. Seriously, for all we know...the pt for xp could solve a lot of our issues and then this whole strand...and others for that matter, will be moot.

I am not going to pay more for platform parity because the box cost the same regardless. I love what mine can do. I moved from cubase 32vst and the only thing I wish I could bring with me is the true tape feature. I have never been more happy.

We can compare bells and whistles all night, but no matter how much you dress up your hyundai, it's still going to be a hyundai. (Even the tiburon images/icons/tongue.gif ) We have the grand daddy of them all. The lexus, the beamer, whatever. I for one am pretty please with my luxurious ride and high tech performance...even if I don't have a "CUP HOLDER" big enough for a Super Big Gulp.

They give you both os apps so if you are really that mad, them maybe ...dare I say it...you should pick up a maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa images/icons/grin.gif

[mattm]

Originally posted by Aussie169:
II really don't see how any one salesperson can make a statement about overall percentages when a) they are only a small percentage of the market, and b) both platforms come in the same box.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">let's say they've sold 300 001's, most of them with a g4. then lets say they ask what type of computer the person buying the 001 is going to put it in if they didn't buy a g4. the reason for this is to prevent them getting abusive phone calls or visitors claiming they have been sold a product that doesn't work. that way the store protects themselves and the customer knows they have bought the right thing.

and there you have it - the way one sales person can be indicative of the percentage of sales in melbourne. afterall, there is only one official digidesign importer in australia and you, of all people, ought to know that. oh yeah, you may also notice that at the beginning of the post, i wrote "these aren't sales figures from digidesign. far from it..."

Originally posted by Okion:
It is my opinion that investors are shying away from avid specifically because of their Mac-centric approach.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i don't think investors are shying away from avid that much, if at all. if you study the technology market closely, you will notice a common curve in two ways. firstly, check the timeline against other technology manufacturers of similar vintage. secondly, when a company releases a ground breaking product, TDM protools in this case, investment and excitement run through the roof. as the excitement settles and sales begin to slow due to the limited demand for the product, so too does investment in the company. it's really quite normal.

~matt

[mattm]

the reason i will not consider doing another full project using the PC 001 is mainly because of stability. as soon as you start working it, it falls over. it may go for days without failing but when it does, it sucks. just lastnight i got what we refer to as a 'spontaneous reboot' simply using the numeric keypad to play from a marker. i was right in the middle of something and then BAM! the vibe goes out the window, closely follwed by the pc. (well i felt like throwing it out the window anyhow...) you just don't have to put up with that shi^ when you're using a mac. i'm not saying they don't crash, just that i've never managed to crash one when doing fast, heavy editing or by simply pressing play.

if digidesign follow the lead of emagic here and introduce altivec support, the faster g4's might well start closing in on the athlon. if that is the case, i'm spending the money on one.

~matt

[mattm]

originally posted by some guy:

bah humbug! that's rediculous.

1) there are 2 kinds of music stores - those that serve the mass market and those that serve the "pro" market. is your friend's store a pro market store? that would explain more sales of higher end equipment and more sales to mac.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yes, there are two kinds of music stores in the USA - those that sell music store crap to people making demos in their apartments and those that sell equipment we can make records with. i refer to the latter.

sure, i've done a few records on a 001 but do you think i would even breathe near this computer where a serious album was concerned? not for more than the internerd, that's for sure!

any serious audio production i am involved with does not leave the mac, assuming it makes it off tape in the first place!

[Okion]

We can compare bells and whistles all night, but no matter how much you dress up your hyundai, it's still going to be a hyundai. (Even the tiburon images/icons/tongue.gif ) We have the grand daddy of them all. The lexus, the beamer, whatever. I for one am pretty please with my luxurious ride and high tech performance...even if I don't have a "CUP HOLDER" big enough for a Super Big Gulp.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I say this with the utmost regard for you as a person and with a lot of respect for previous posts of yours I have read, but....

You can take your corporate-mind-share cheerleading somewhere else. I seriously doubt that the level of intellect here at the DUC is low enough for that. That kind of mentality is the same BS you get from Mac zealots.

BTW In case you didn't realize having a Coke won't really make the world a better place.

[Okion]

i don't think investors are shying away from avid that much, if at all. if you
study the technology market closely, you will notice a common curve in two
ways. firstly, check the timeline against other technology manufacturers of
similar vintage. secondly, when a company releases a ground breaking
product, TDM protools in this case, investment and excitement run through
the roof. as the excitement settles and sales begin to slow due to the
limited demand for the product, so too does investment in the company. it's
really quite normal.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You don't compare Avid against the tech market as a whole (Oh and BTW, DOT COM is not tech, at it's best it's mail order. DOT COM support tech doesn't count either any more than catalog publishers do.) So where is Avid in comparison to Avid's competition?

Holding it's own, but steadily loosing ground. And, by the way, occasionally taking very drastic dips out of synch with the market. This usually spells trouble.

[Aussie169]

Originally posted by mattm:
[QUOTE]and there you have it - the way one sales person can be indicative of the percentage of sales in melbourne. afterall, there is only one official digidesign importer in australia and you, of all people, ought to know that.

~matt<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well.... firstly, yes there is one importer in Australia, and that is Digidesign themselves. But the problem with your statement is that we don't purchase from Digi, we purchase from a reseller, and there must be a hundred of them in Australia alone.
I live nearly 2 hours drive from Melbourne, so I walk into my local pro audio dealer and say "Get a 001 in for me." He gets it, I pay for it. He doesn't have a clue what system I'm putting it on.
Maybe this is considered a strange way of buying things, but hey, that's how it's done here.

I stand by my statement. Digi are the only ones who could possibly know the truth.

Mark

[Princeton]

Originally posted by Mattm: the reason i will not consider doing another full project using the PC 001 is mainly because of stability. as soon as you start working it, it falls over. it may go for days without failing but when it does, it sucks. just lastnight i got what we refer to as a 'spontaneous reboot' simply using the numeric keypad to play from a marker. i was right in the middle of something and then BAM! the vibe goes out the window, closely follwed by the pc. (well i felt like throwing it out the window anyhow...) you just don't have to put up with that shi^ when you're using a mac. i'm not saying they don't crash, just that i've never managed to crash one when doing fast, heavy editing or by simply pressing play.

Hello mate,
If your 001 setup is that unstable, you probably have a problem greater than Digi can solve. Either your setup and configuration is wrong or you have a mass load of conflicting software on you PC. I don't think, in my opinion that the stability is an issue. I've used 001 for a couple of years and it handles very well and is very stable.
My gripe is lack of parity or the seemingly cavalier, laid back, afterthought or left behind attitude that seems to emanate from Digi. When all the improvements are done on the MAC then perhaps, after a multitude of deafening screams from the PC users, Digi might begin to offer the mirage of some hope that perhaps, in the elusive future, we might get a few things of the wish list.

I write this at the risk of falling on my face, knowing that we stand at the eve of the all-important XP upgrade that supposedly would cause me to sound like brawling brat. Quite frankly, I hope that is the case, because these types of arguments would disappear from the DUC. We hope. Or we'll just find something else to gripe about. The truth be said, we love the product and that's why we wail. Digi has to realize that hope differed makes the heart sick.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

[mattm]

Originally posted by Okion:
You don't compare Avid against the tech market as a whole<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">how dare i insult your market smarts when you so obviously passed business 101.

Originally posted by Okion:
(Oh and BTW, DOT COM is not tech, at it's best it's mail order. DOT COM support tech doesn't count either any more than catalog publishers do.)<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">how insightful! thankyou for sharing your wisdom.

[mattm]

Originally posted by Princeton:
If your 001 setup is that unstable, you probably have a problem greater than Digi can solve. Either your setup and configuration is wrong or you have a mass load of conflicting software on you PC. I don't think, in my opinion that the stability is an issue. I've used 001 for a couple of years and it handles very well and is very stable.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">oh, stability is not a problem if i am simply recording or mixing, even doing some light editing but as soon as i start to beat it as hard as i beat a TDM session, it falls over. by this i mean perhaps twenty edits a minute and twice as many play/stop operations. this behaviour is completely unpredictable but it appears the culprit is most probably windows memory management as it seems to be more likely to happen when the memory is taking a beating. it's not specific to this machine - i can make it happen on any PC PTLE setup but not on a Mac. not yet, anyhow.

perhaps my priorities are screwy by your standards but my greater concern is being able to use the software the same way i do on a mac rather than having the exact same functionality as one.

My gripe is lack of parity...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">patience, my friend.

~matt

[Princeton]

Originally posted my Mattm:
oh, stability is not a problem if i am simply recording or mixing, even doing some light editing but as soon as i start to beat it as hard as i beat a TDM session, it falls over. by this i mean perhaps twenty edits a minute and twice as many play/stop operations. this behaviour is completely unpredictable but it appears the culprit is most probably windows memory management as it seems to be more likely to happen when the memory is taking a beating. it's not specific to this machine - i can make it happen on any PC PTLE setup but not on a Mac. not yet, anyhow.

I beg to differ, a properly calibrated PC would handle your rather rigid paces just as well as a MAC. Also comparing the response of the 001 to a TDM system, is comapring apples and oranges. The MAC is better than PC arguement is antiquated and without merit, and if you find so much comfort in the MAC, I suggest you diffect. Don't worry, I won't tell anyone.

[mattm]

Originally posted by Princeton:
I beg to differ, a properly calibrated PC would handle your rather rigid paces just as well as a MAC.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">really! well your begging is noted but not accepted. BTW, i also mentioned Mac PTLE, not just TDM. the response of a TDM system whilst performing edits is exactly the same as an LE system. that is, it is processor dependent not a DSP based function.

i am not making a blanket statement that Mac's are better than PC's, just that they run protools far, far better. suffice to say i have never had a mac reboot without having asked it to do so.

perhaps you might care to offer some genius PC calibration tips? my PC knowledge is obviously not as great as yours.

[Princeton]

Obviously not. images/icons/tongue.gif images/icons/tongue.gif

[mattm]

well? any calibration tips? images/icons/grin.gif

[citi]

Originally posted by Okion:
[QUOTE]
I say this with the utmost regard for you as a person and with a lot of respect for previous posts of yours I have read, but....

You can take your corporate-mind-share cheerleading somewhere else. I seriously doubt that the level of intellect here at the DUC is low enough for that. That kind of mentality is the same BS you get from Mac zealots.

BTW In case you didn't realize having a Coke won't really make the world a better place.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow...Okion, tell me how you really feel. You preface your comment with you taking my previous posts with the upmost regard for me as a person, but you word your entire post as a verbal bashing. Apparently you have chosen to take one piece of my post and use it to insult me. That is fine. You do what you must. However, If you had read my entire post, you would have noticed that this has nothing to do with corporate ass kissing. In fact I said that I tried other apps, CUBASE VST, CAKEWALK, EVEN LOGIC and (this one might be a strectch for you) In my opinion It is by far the best for me. I do recall mentioning that.

So in closing, I would appreciate you and your comments more if you would not soundbite me because you obviously did not read the entire post. I like constructive critism. So please...constructively criticize.

Also, Don't compare me to what the supposed "mac people" do. That comment alone worries me. You should not generalize an entire group. That is how the flame wars start.

[mattm]

well, come on! i'm sitting on the edge of my seat waiting to learn how Princeton, the computer technician from Woodbridge, Virginia calibrates his computer!

i'm also expecting more sound investment advice from Okion, the market genius.

[Princeton]

I'm certainly not going to dignify your quest for mud-slinging with anymore than this. The age old MAC is better PC arguement did not start with me and definitely would not end in this forum. I'm just curious why you're still on the PC DUC.

[Okion]

In my opinion It is by far the best for me. I do recall mentioning that.

So in closing, I would appreciate you and your comments more if you would not soundbite me because you obviously did not read the entire post. I like constructive critism. So please...constructively criticize.
[QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dude, you were the one using sound bites, that was my whole point. You seem to be ignoring that I was talking specifically about this part of your post and not you as a person (which I tried to make clear). If you don't find that crit constructive then you won't find anything else I have to say constructive either. Sorry about the jibe at the end, I thought it was funny images/icons/smile.gif

BTW I re-read your post and I don't see any "for me" in it anywhere.

Originally posted by mattm:
[QB][
i am not making a blanket statement that Mac's are better than PC's, just that they run protools far, far better. suffice to say i have never had a mac reboot without having asked it to do so.
+++
i'm also expecting more sound investment advice from Okion, the market genius.
QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WOW! I have had Macs crash while doing nothing. Macs crash at the drop of a dime man. X will take care of this problem BTW.

As far as PTLE on Mac or PC if it's crashing on one platform but not on another it't the code not the platform. Blame Digi not MS.

If you want investment advice then I am not the one to get it from, but I don't mind offering you my opinions.

The first thing you should do is start looking at volume and timing as well as price and trend.

If you have questions about what you find, feel free to ask. I will give you my unprofessional, not-meant-as-advice opinion (i.e. you can't sue me if you lose money because you believe in my opinions because I am telling you not to use them that way). If you want professional advice I suggest you seek that out in your local area. But I don't mind answering questions if you have them.

[mattm]

Originally posted by Princeton:
I'm certainly not going to dignify your quest for mud-slinging with anymore than this. The age old MAC is better PC arguement did not start with me and definitely would not end in this forum. I'm just curious why you're still on the PC DUC.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">man! i'll say it again for chri'sakes and get it straight this time would you! the mac and pc platforms both have their merits. just to clarify, i am not suggesting that one is globally better than the other only that protools not only runs better but is far more enjoyable to use on a mac. not because of the extra functionality and availability of third party products, just that it works better. is that so frikkin hard to understand?

Originally posted by Okion:
As far as PTLE on Mac or PC if it's crashing on one platform but not on another it't the code not the platform. Blame Digi not MS.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">now ain't that the funniest thing i've heard in a while.

[Xochi]

I'm just wroking on a PC until I get a Mac.
Xochi

[Okion]

Originally posted by mattm:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Okion:
As far as PTLE on Mac or PC if it's crashing on one platform but not on another it't the code not the platform. Blame Digi not MS.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">now ain't that the funniest thing i've heard in a while.<hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well Matt, now that you and I are the only ones left on this topic I feel that I can speak freely and directly.

Matt, are you a computer scientist, or a software engineer? Are you?

Do you know how to write industrial strength, professional code?

So how is it that you think you know anything about what would cause an application to crash on one OS and not on another?

Can you tell me what it is about Windows that would make PTLE crash that isn't the same on MacOs?

I guarantee you that if you can tell me exactly what the condition is that is causing the crash, I can tell you why it is the architecture of PT that is at fault. I can tell you how you can change the code so that it will not crash on either platform.

You know what? Personally I prefer the Mac OS. It's just more intuitive and user-friendly. Now with OSX it will be even more programmer friendly. But I got my PC for 2/5 the cost of a comparable Mac. It would have cost me 3K more for the same performance and features for which I paid 2K. Believe me I tried everything to run PT on a Mac I shopped around and tried to find a way to make it worth it to me to run on a Mac specifically because of the advantages you get in the PT environment. But I couldn't bring myself to buy a machine with ½ the features and 2/3s the performance for the same price. So I choose to go with another PC for my studio. I've never had it crash, I've never had a single problem with it. From time to time I still turn on the old Mac, and it will run for a few hours before spontaneously crashing. You know what that tells me? It tells me that the OS has memory leaks, or some funky race condition.

Do you know what a memory leak is? Do you know what a race condition is?

Do you even know why you are such a zealot about Mac?

I'll tell you what, if you can show that it is not PT, that it is the OS and I can't show how the architecture of PT could be changed to fix the problem, I will buy the Mac, and publicly apologize by wearing a T-shirt that says, "mattm was correct, I am a PC idiot." And send you a T-shirt which says whatever you like.

But if you can't back it up, then shut up, go back to the Mac side of the DUC and stop trolling.

[greenroom]

Go it boys this is almost as good as Sesame Street! images/icons/grin.gif

[mattm]

Originally posted by greenroom:
Go it boys this is almost as good as Sesame Street! images/icons/grin.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hmmm. come to think of it, sesame street did lose it's edge after jim henson passed on. images/icons/blush.gif

[mattm]

Okion, may i suggest that when attempting to insult someone, either go about it in an intelligent, subtle manner or get directly to the point (Do you even know why you are such a zealot about Mac?) and blow their freakin' head up their arse.

attempting to publicly humiliate someone, of whom you know absolutely nothing, by assuming they do not possess the knowledge to which you stake claim could potentially backfire, thereby making you look like a royal twat - a situation that can be easily be avoided by getting to the point.

i will, however much against my better judgement, indulge you one last time.

with reference to your post above, the answer to your first three questions is yes. from then on, it would seem you suggest i 'hack' the software, as i do not have access to the API. i could be wrong but i am somewhat doubtful that you do. this is an extract from the digidevelopers website (http://www.digidevelopers.com/), “Due to the proprietary nature of information given to Digidesign developer partners, developer materials are not available for the purposes of private use or experimentation.”

assuming for a moment that you do have access to these developer resources and you are so certain that you know exactly what the problems are within the protools le software structure, why don't you go work for digidesign? surely this is a better option than paying for the wishlist? i hear they're even looking for experienced windows programmers, as are at least two third party plug-in developers! although i guess with declining investor confidence and all, your future may not be assured.

[Xman]

*lol* ....so mattm is a programer now??? ....earlier in this thread he was a pro engineer... ...go on guys this is fun!!!! -Just a small question: -How much time do you spend á reply??? *S*

[Okion]

Originally posted by mattm:
Okion, may i suggest that when attempting to insult someone, either go about it in an intelligent, subtle manner or get directly to the point (Do you even know why you are such a zealot about Mac?) and blow their freakin' head up their arse.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wasn't attempting to insult you.
...is that subtle enough for ya?

No really matt I wasn't, I was trying to get this conversation somewhere out of the troll status.

Originally posted by mattm:


[QUOTE]Originally posted by mattm:
[QB]
with reference to your post above, the answer to your first three questions is yes. from then on, it would seem you suggest i 'hack' the software, as i do not have access to the API.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cool man, what do you do? what kind of code do you write? If you have written code for both Mac & PC you know that it's probably not the OS. That 'hack' bit is a good way of responding to what I said. I assumed from your comments that you had knowledge of what was causing PT to crash on Windows, and that it was something specificaly about Win that was the issue. If you don't know that, then how can you make the statments suggesting it is Windows?

Anyway it seems that neither of us has access to the code so I will still go for Ockham's Razor and say it's PT (if it is a software issue).

Originally posted by mattm:


assuming for a moment that you do have access to these developer resources and you are so certain that you know exactly what the problems are within the protools le software structure, why don't you go work for digidesign? surely this is a better option than paying for the wishlist? i hear they're even looking for experienced windows programmers, as are at least two third party plug-in developers! although i guess with declining investor confidence and all, your future may not be assured.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I am just real confident that if there is a bug, I could fix it. I make my $$ 1/2 the time, fixing other peoples attempts at OOD. You know how it is, having a degree in CS you probably have come across a lot of that right? It's amazing what some people will do. The funny thing is these are allways the same chaps that complain about and denying academic approaches, and then end up using the same said approach 5 years later after every thing else, including their buisnesses fail. And then they go on saying that the academic approach won't work in the "real world". It's amazing really.

You know I would work for Digi, if I knew that the direction the company was going was sound. As it is it looks like they have a chance to show they can stay in the game. It's like Mac back when they could have released the OS for PCs and taken the OS market, but instead they decided to stay compleatly proprietary and they ended up loosing to MS (A company that wasn't even in Hardware BTW).

I am real interested in what you do matt. What kide of code do you write? Are you in the SFBA?