Another serious timing issue with X-Form Elastic

[midnightrambler]

Try this :

Example video : https://we.tl/buUosgiUrK


1. New session
2. Create new click track, set sound on both Click 1 and Click 2 to "MPC Click"
3. Create 2 new mono tracks
3. Route the click track to the 2 audio tracks and record 8 bars or so
4. Enable Polyphonic on one of the tracks, X-Form on the other
5. Pull Up "Event Operations-Quantise" and quantise both tracks to 1/16 beats
6. Now try doing a crazy stretch somewhere using a warp marker, the same thing on each of the tracks (for example, see my video at about 1:25 in)


After the edit, the X-Form click track goes way off the grid, while the Polyphonic one stays bang on as it should :eek:


If you change the X-Form track to Polyphonic, the click snaps back in time. When it's on X-Form, the click on my example is about 490 samples off the grid.

[midnightrambler]

Bump.

No one bothered by this behaviour? -> https://vid.me/IBif

[john1192]

Bump.

No one bothered by this behaviour? -> https://vid.me/IBif

i see some odd things ... waveforms are changing (all but the 1st one) .. so instead of a square wave looking waveform, you get a different waveform for every Click !!! crazy weird ..

i went all the way back to PT 11.3.2 to see if it was PT or x-form ..

this is with x-form 12.1.0.757 ... i am going to see if i have another x-form version that i can try ...

thx for sharing this and lets se what happens ...

[Marsdy]

Bump.

No one bothered by this behaviour? -> https://vid.me/IBif

I agree that doesn't look or sound right!

Personally, I'd put that down to X-Form being old, partially senile and in need of some TLC. It's never been great with most rhythmic material and the red zone stretch you did maybe pushed it over the edge?

[albee1952]

An issue I have been having lately with X-Form is(and could it be related to your issue); I move a WARP marker and the audio snaps back. The solution is to click on the WARP marker again(the audio will snap back to the marker where it belongs). seen this on several versions of PT12 and on both Mac and PC.

[Marsdy]

An issue I have been having lately with X-Form is(and could it be related to your issue); I move a WARP marker and the audio snaps back. The solution is to click on the WARP marker again(the audio will snap back to the marker where it belongs). seen this on several versions of PT12 and on both Mac and PC.

I'm sure I've seen this too but also in polyphonic and rhythmic mode.

[john1192]

I'm sure I've seen this too but also in polyphonic and rhythmic mode.

monophonic mode makes every thing late ... or it does for me ...

[leftalive]

An issue I have been having lately with X-Form is(and could it be related to your issue); I move a WARP marker and the audio snaps back. The solution is to click on the WARP marker again(the audio will snap back to the marker where it belongs). seen this on several versions of PT12 and on both Mac and PC.

Yep, all the time, and not just X-Form, although it seems to be the worst offender.

The only work around I've found is to consolidate after every single movement of a warp marker, which really sucks.

Considering how often I use EA (especially for sound design), this is probably my single biggest complaint about PT right now, aside from general stability.

[moshuajusic]

Interesting. Looks like it only happens when you push a warp marker into red territory, which I tend to avoid for obvious reasons. If you warp within its "safe" range, subsequent clicks aren't shifted. Can you confirm that?

It also looks like it may be a flaw with quantization or the click plugin. If I do the same thing without "quantizing elastic events" first--and I would hope PT is intelligent enough to not have to quantize a click track--I don't see the clicks shift beyond the right warp marker, even if I move the middle warp marker into red territory. Can you confirm that too?

Turns out, "quantizing elastic events" on a recorded click track does shift the clicks a bit, on both poly & x-form elastic algorithms. (I copied the original audio to another track and inverted the phase. They didn't cancel after quantizing one.) That's a little more concerning.

(12.7.1/10.12.5)

[midnightrambler]

Thanks for the responses guys.

the red zone stretch you did maybe pushed it over the edge?

Interesting. Looks like it only happens when you push a warp marker into red territory, which I tend to avoid for obvious reasons. If you warp within its "safe" range, subsequent clicks aren't shifted. Can you confirm that?

I will double check this - it is possible that it's just a "red" zone thing that's throwing it, but the reason I actually tried this is precisely because something I was actually working on shifted slightly out of time later on down the timeline using X-Form...you would hope and expect that any markers that have been created but not selected would prevent any movement further down the line. At least, that's always how it's worked for me anyway.

If I do the same thing without "quantizing elastic events" first--and I would hope PT is intelligent enough to not have to quantize a click track--I don't see the clicks shift beyond the right warp marker, even if I move the middle warp marker into red territory. Can you confirm that too?

Yes I'll have to try this. It's just weird that the other EA modes work as expected though, even with the red zone in place.

An issue I have been having lately with X-Form is(and could it be related to your issue); I move a WARP marker and the audio snaps back. The solution is to click on the WARP marker again(the audio will snap back to the marker where it belongs). seen this on several versions of PT12 and on both Mac and PC.
I'm sure I've seen this too but also in polyphonic and rhythmic mode.

Yes same here, though I've not managed to be able to reproduce the effect consistently every time (as yet).

Turns out, "quantizing elastic events" on a recorded click track does shift the clicks a bit, on both poly & x-form elastic algorithms. (I copied the original audio to another track and inverted the phase. They didn't cancel after quantizing one.) That's a little more concerning.

That's actually the one thing doesn't concern me really - it would only take the merest hint of some processing for the 2 audio files to vary enough not to ø, and presumably each "click" is still being processed slightly, even if they are bang on the grid. (As a comparison, Melodyne doesn't always ø with the original track, even when there's been no tuning or timing.)


Considering how often I use EA (especially for sound design), this is probably my single biggest complaint about PT right now, aside from general stability.

Ditto. (Most of my other recent posts have been complaints about EA too :-) )