horrendous clicks & pops being introduced by playback of strongly edited sessions

[Hans Mues]

After heavily editing some sessions horrendous clicks were introduced during playback. After my nervous breakdown passed i checked if i could see this clicks in the waveforms and i did!!! Then after thinking that i've lost months of work, i noticed that as i zoomed in the clicks disappeared!!! Then i noticed that the clicks were random, thus i think that the Audio files are OK. But i want to keep all the editing work i've done. I've tried trashing the prefs, defragment drives, reinstalling DAE, Protools, everything but reinstalling the system because that would take too long and clients are booked. Could somebody please help??? Everything else works fine including other/new sessions & recordings.
System 9.0.2
G 3 w/320 Meg Ram
PT 5.0
Atto Card, Digidrives
Thanks in advance for any help!!!

[Mt.Everest]

I cant think what would cause that, especially that they are showing up in the waveform... You say once they are random and once that you see them... Which is it? And when you soomed in full zoom they were gone for good or just at that zoom level?
I would try the duplicate command on one of the tracks you are finished editing with clicks, and see if you still hear it.. Sometimes I get that thing where the waveform is off sync with what I am hearing so i do a option shift 3 to dupe it and it takes care of it...
But try to break the problem dowm further...
Is it on all tracks ? Only on some? What about when you solo tracks and listen individually?
2 obvious things but Ill say anyway:
Check the edits... maybe the clicks are at some of the splice points of your many edits
and check clock... maybe the clock reference in session setup window has switched to an unsync'd option...
--victor

[Rams Boy]

You might also try to add crossfades:
• Select all files
• Command F (crassfades)
• ENTER

When I have pops or clicks between edits, this usually works. (You may have to adjust the Crossfade milliseconds)

[smlworld]

and check clock... maybe the clock reference in session setup window has switched to an unsync'd option...
--victor[/B][/QUOTE]

yeah - it sounds like you have some bizarre clocking issue. as if it's locked to some other reference or AS above.

s

[Arno Peeters]

I recently stumbled on a problem like this ( http://duc.digidesign.com/ubb/Forum16/HTML/006600.html ). It turned out that the clicks were apparently introduced when the editing started, and was probably caused by a wrong clock-setting during recording. If that is the case, all can sound well during recording and even playback, but the **** hits the fan as soon as you start editing (even minor things like trimming, splicing etc.) The waveform will jump, change, clicks start soft and will grow louder with every edit.... For me it was hell !

Could that scenario fit somehow ?



------------------
Arno Peeters
Tape TV Productions (http://www.tapetv.nl)

[Hans Mues]

smlworld:
the USD is the master (is running in it's internal clock)
Arno: it really sounds similar to what you described with the excepcion that the problem appeared in some sessions that where sounding perfect without any further modification. Actually, I discovered the problem in other session of the same project while doing some Audio Suite processing and it seemed to spread like a disease to previously good sounding sessions which by the way have only in common it's many, many editions (bad musicians with good ideas http://duc.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif, in some cases after edition Audio Files were converted back to continuous new files using AS gain change with 0 gain (I believe it's the simplest operation only multiplying the bits by 1 and thus keeping the data intact) to increase redrawing speed and decrease session weight and consecuently saving time. That procedure was working good until day X in wich the glitches occured after the processing, and the undo command took care of that, but the editions were too many to keep and i had to rerecord the tracks using the buses to route to new tracks wich worked just fine. But after that the problem appeared in many OTHER sessions without even doing changes on them!!!
sorry for the long story but i feel this is a good description of the problem. Any ideas?
Thanks Again.

Hans

[smlworld]

Hans

I lock my USD to an Ardsync 2 AND a sigma blackburst. I have always felt the need for a master clock - i used to lock clock from a microlynx with blackburst and 256. Perhaps, and this is a WILD guess - your USD is out of wack. Have you tried pulling usd out of the loop and using internal 888 sync?

good hunting.

[Hans Mues]

thanks Everest for your tip on duplicating, i'll try that, but the waveforms are in sync with the sound (except for the glitches). Of course i use crossfades and all the studio is properly in sync with an USD. As i said the glitches are random and only appear in some files and in some sessions, and in different zoomings they change place and sometimes disappear!!! if there was a clock issue i would have them all the time and maybe they would not even draw, right? i apreciate the suggestions folks!
Hans

[smlworld]

Hans

Is your USD locked to anything or is it the master?

scott

[DigiTechSupt]

-To confirm whether or not the clicks are in fact part of the audio file(s), highlight all regions in the edit window and choose "Recalculate Waveform Overviews" from the Audio Regions List menu.

-Check the integrity of your drives with Disk Warrior or any other such utility. Repair any and all corrupted catalogs and/or BTree Directories.

-Check your drives for the possibility of a Virus using Virex, Norton AntiVirus or any other such utility. Repair any and all corrupted files.

Brent

[Arno Peeters]

There was one occurance here on the boards of a user having the *exact* same problem (clicks & artefacts after AS processing).
He found out he had one bad RAM chip causing this...
Wouldn't be glad to go trough all that hussle...

So beware: it can be RAM related is well :-0



------------------
Arno Peeters
Tape TV Productions (http://www.tapetv.nl)

[Hans Mues]

thanks a lot to all. i'll check every possibility and write back.

Hans

[Disco_Doctor]

I'd like to point out one more very likely possibility:

You didn't mention what SCSI card you are using. Is it the Digi/Atto Express PCI card? On *several* occasions - I have had major clicks and pops spontaneously occur in sessions. The cause turned out to be **read errors** from the hard drives. As Digi tech support suggested, you should recalculate overviews and see if that reveals clicks and pops in the audio - BUT - guess what - that does not mean that the clicks and pops are actually there. If you are experiencing hard drive read errors, then when Pro Tools recalculates the overviews, it will display the clicks and pops in the new overviews because, at that moment in time, the data is being incorrectly read from the hard drive thus causing clicks and pops which will be written into your waveform overviews.

The solution (if this turns out to be your problem): There are several. First - DO NOT back up the session. DO NOT copy the audio files from one drive to another. If you copy files while experiencing read errors, then you are writing the errors into the copied files. Instead - try swapping the order of drives if you are using removable drive bays, or try taking any drives offline that you are not using. Try changing SCSI ID's. Make a safety copy of the session file, then try booting the session with only one drive online (even if your session is spread across multiple drives, skip files as necessary) and see if the problem goes away. If it does, you are experiencing read errors and an Atto SCSI card problem which I have seen on about a dozen PT systems. The trick is to reconfigure the drives so that the problem disappears (recalculate overviews to confirm that the problem is gone) - then make backups and safety copies of your session.

The upside of this problem, if this is what is happening to you, is that your data is perfectly intact - it is just being read back wrong. Good luck!

http://duc.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif

[Disco_Doctor]

Followup - after reading another of your posts where you say this problem is spreading to other sessions - I am 99% positive that you are experiencing the "read error" problem I have described. I had the same thing happen. I was working on a session, suddenly it was full of clicks and pops. For the hell of it, I opened another session, which was perfectly fine the last time it was open and which had not been touched that day - and it was full of clicks and pops. Obviously, if I hadn't opened the session that day, then files hadn't been touched, and simply playing a session doesn't write new data to the disk, so that's how I was able to verify that the problem was read errors and the data was in fact intact. I am sure this is what is happening to you. Post more system details: What SCSI card are you using? What hard drives are you using? Are you using Glyph or Rourke removable drive bays?

Remember: If you record or write data at this point - then you are *writing* the read errors to disk - if you audiosuite a file while this is happening - you are writing those errors to disk and screwing yourself. DO NOT create new data, or rewrite or process existing files. You've got to stop the read error problem before you can safely backup your data.

http://duc.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif

[Disco_Doctor]

One more thing: if anyone at Digi is reading this thread - please forward it to Steve Rosenthal. I have reported extensively on the problem to Steve - someone from Digi and Atto should fly to this guys studio and see the problem first hand.

Hans - one other idea - this is all speculation until you confirm you are using the Atto card - if you are, open the Atto Express utility and restore the factory mode page settings to the drive. That helped me once. Part of my speculation as to the cause of this problem is that the "special" audio mode page settings that Atto uses can cause read errors. I may be wrong, but nevertheless, restoring factory mode pages has solved this problem for me once.

http://duc.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif

[Disco_Doctor]

One more thing. (Geez!) Do NOT follow Brent's advice and run any Virus or disk repair utilities on your hard drives. Again - if you do anything that writes or re-writes your files, while experiencing read errors, then you are writing those errors to disk and destroying your files.

http://duc.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif

[Hans Mues]

YES! You described perfectly the problem i have, and yes, i am ussing the digi/atto express dual pci card!!! But doesnt restoring to factory mode in the atto express utiliy would not let my drives to work fast enough? i remember that they didn´t work well until i changed some settings.
by the way i have the two rourke data A/V 10 k 9 Gigs and one 18/10k Digidrive removables.
And i am a little scared because at some point i defragmented the drives (after Norton ddoctor). do you think my data is forever damaged?
How scary!!!
BTW thanks a lot DISCO DOCTOR!!!

[Disco_Doctor]

Try going back to the factory mode pages just to see if that clears up the problem. Try all the other stuff I suggested. And Digi - go visit this guy and pin this problem down!!

http://duc.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif

[DigiTechSupt]

Hans,
Can you please post the following information regarding your system:
-Order of the Drives on the SCSI bus (from first to last)
-Which Drives are attached to which bus of the ATTO
-Total SCSI cable length on each bus (including internal cables)
-What type of termination you are using

In addition:
-Are you using a hot-swap chassis from Rorke?

-If you are using an LVD terminator or multi-mode terminator, install an active single-ended terminator instead-- especially if your Rorke devices are installed in a hot swap chassis.

Brent

[Hans Mues]

It seems that DISCO DOCTOR was right!! But unfortunately it is too late!! NO NEW CLICKS are being produced with the factory settings in the atto but as i already told you, I DEFRAGMENTED the drives before changing settings (and before knowing this) so i checked and almost all my audio files are now damaged, i know so, because now the clicks are NOT random and are consistent with the overviews!!!!!!!!!!! You don't know the amount of work that was behind those editions!!!
At least we maybe know the source of the problem now.
are there any De-clickers to auto-clean this mess? I'm going nuts! The clicks obviously differ from the rest of the waveform, so there must be something to remove them.
BRENT:
1.-SCSI chain:
a.- Rourke data chasis (hot swapp) id's 2 and 6
b.- digidrive id 1
c.- cd burner CRW 6416S id 5
d.- active terminator
2.-everithing is attached to bus 2
3.-cable lenght is about 7 ft
7.-active termination.

Please fix this one!
thanks
ps
AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by Hans Mues (edited January 31, 2001).]

[Disco_Doctor]

Hans, your SCSI chain is probably way too long. The Atto single-ended SCSI card is really touchy. I have never been able to run reliably with more than three drives (two on one chain, one on the other) attached to it.

Automatic de-clicking is probably not gonna do the trick for you. Hopefully you have backups of the data prior to experiencing the SCSI problem?

In the future, here's how I would wire up your system: If you are using a G3/G4, buy an Adaptec 2906 card and run your CDRW off of that card. Run the Rourke bay on bus 1 of the Atto card. Run the Digidrive on bus 2 of the Atto card. Use *very* short cables of the highest quality.

http://duc.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif