Apogee Trak2 as sole front end?

[Bryan]

Anyone using this unit as the sole front end to a pt mix system? I'd like to do so with the D/A and digi bus options.

Thanks.

Bryan

[Bryan]

...i was wondering that myself...

[shadowbox]

I was looking into this. I was mainly interested because of the Mic Pres. I have heard from 2 different sources on rec.audio.pro that the mic pres are not that great. Both people sell these units, and had them in stock. Neither of them were really hot on it. They both suggested a PSX-100 will seperate Mic-pres as a better option.

[Baba Omar Jun]

I would suggest to buy Rossetta or PSX-100 and get a seperate Mic-pres, Focusrite, Neve, Tube-Tech....

[Bryan]

thanks guys. looks like it ain't the magic bullet i was hoping for...although this machine would be primarily for playback/editing, so I may give it a try anyhow.

[shadowbox]

If you use a PSX-100 can you run all of your digital devices (including Digi interfaces) off of its clock or would you need a USD or Aardvard SyncDA to distribute?

[spigots]

You clock off the PSX-100, but it only has one WC out, so yes, you need a distribution box.

[Dean Bohana]

This will change many a mind!

www.audiomidi.com/hardware/rme/adi96pro/ (http://www.audiomidi.com/hardware/rme/adi96pro/)
The RME ADI96 Pro..
Supposedly matches if not surpasses Apogee in conversion quality, 2 hi-end mic pres, DSp Power (no such 'mule in the Apogee) and....get ready...$1400.00!!!!!
Mine's on order! Good Luck, Dean

[Bryan]

Dean, That RME looks interesting but it doesn't quite capture the features I desire, namely:

A/D and D/A (an option on the trak2)
mic pre (heard they are _average_ on the trak2)
protools connection (this is for a portable rack, so I'm looking for a sleak solution)

[uno1234]

I believe the "sound" of the Apogees goes alot further than any specs this RME comparison gives. Alot of people like the Apogees because they sound and feel analog.

[Dean Bohana]

Sorry fellas, you're both misinformed.
The RME indeed does have 2 XLR phantom powered (switchable) mic pres (hi-end). Though it is only A/D, it's sound quality surpasses Apogee, which is also only A/D, but they (Apogee) give you the option to purchase an additional card to make it D/A as well. Bryan, ofcoarse you can hook it up to pro tools. You're not paying attention. The other HUGE difference is RME's DSP functions: Compression, De-essing, brick wall limiting, and more more more!!! Let's face it, Apogee's in trouble. RME's for real. Just conduct a search on all the Digi forums and read up. Everyone who's heard/uses them are blown away. They might have been smarter to charge more $ (if that what would give their products more "legitimacy") but hey, WE WIN!!! UNO 1234: please describe what analog "feels" like....your comment is based on what you've "heard"....listen yourself!
I know it's difficult to swallow at such a relatively affordable price. Love to all, Dean

[This message has been edited by Dean Bohana (edited January 25, 2001).]

[Bryan]

Dean,
I know that the RME has a mic pre, I was simply stating the features I need...of which the RME lacks two: no D/A and no DIRECT CONNECTION to PT, which the Apogee can do via the Ambus. From what I can see, the RME will only hook up to PT via AES, which requires another interface (like the 882 or 888) which is precisely what I'm trying to avoid.

Please correct me if I'm wrong (as if I'm doubting you will!).

Bryan

[Dean Bohana]

Bryan,

That's 2 mic pres...also the D/A card on the Apogee is NOT standard fare but an option, even more $$$.
Of coarse I by no means mean to knock the Apogee, but the price difference is so astounding that it makes you realize it's just not neccessary for them to charge so much, as if they were the only kid on the block. If indeed you do decide on an outboard analog mic pre, RME also offers an 8x8 AD/DA box for $1300.00 as opposed to Apogees $8000.00 piece...more food for thought. Cheers, Dean (at this point, how could you not at least investigate).

[uno1234]

So Dean, have you done a side by side A-B comparison of these two units?

And are you a US RME dealer in your spare time?

[Eric Lambert]

Hey Bryan... Is it just me or are you getting a bit more of an answer than you were expecting/needing. Sounds like the RME piece would be great for some people but maybe not for you. I think I know what you're trying to use this for and (in theory) the Apogee box would be great. How about a demo? Someone here must be able to get you one for a test-drive - only way to really know for sure... If you do pursue the Trak2 let me know what you think. With all that it does I could see it finding it's way into our studio as well.

Eric Lambert

[PMoshay]

I have done side by side listening tests of the
Apogee PSX100
Lucid ada888
RME ADI96 pro
Digi 888 24
Digi 001
Adat XT20

5 engineers were listening, all agreed that there were very noticible differences in all the units.
ALL WERE VERY GOOD, they each had different qualities.

Digi 888 24's and Digi001's had a more analog sound, warmer low mids, more like analog tape

The RME had a great low mid punch but wasnt as warm as the digi gear, very good overall sounding.good bang for the buck.

The Lucid had the best high end, very smooth and great imaging. The lows were very timid and the units levels were hard to acurately calibrate.

Adat XT20's- really dam good considering that you get a tape machine with it for around $1200? about in the middle of the pack

Apogee PSX100-- a great sounding unit, good imaging, crystal clear midrange, a little shy in the bottom end. The apogee was rated the closest to the source in a a/b switch comparason.

For me and 3 of the other engineers that were listening, if we had to only choose one for our multitrack outs, we chose the 888 24's due to the tape like feeling you got on playback, they were the warmest.

Definately choose the unit that suits the type of work that you do.

As for me i want one of each (mabe 2) i could see a use for each one depending on the source material.

Use your ears, they will have their own opinion.......

[swablar]

I don't see any mention fo the Trak2 on the Digi site. I'm pretty sure it uses the Digi Ambus (sp?) card just like the the AD8000, so it may be able to operate as the sole front end. Has anyone talked to Apogee?

curious/interested

[Mount Royal]

Folks:

Does the RME unit have ADAT light pipe out? The web site doesn't present that it does.

John Caldwell

[Bryan]

Pmoshay,

The results of your listening test are very interesting. It does seem like the consensus view is that the best 'all-around' quality is attained by coupling an 888 with a high-quality crystal like the ardsync or nanosync.

Again, in my case, I'm looking for a low-profile/all-in-one box...the trak2 doesn't seem to have any competition (the extraordinary feature set of the RME notwithstanding, Dean ;-).

Alas, now I must wait for the current mac model line to shake-out before putting this kit together.

Peace out brothers; and Eric, get back to work.

Bryan

[This message has been edited by Bryan (edited January 26, 2001).]

[PMoshay]

The 888-24's and a Ardsync have been a very proven combination.
I've never heard anthing other than raves about this combo.
(also considering most major records are done using this combo)

The RME interface is good bang for the buck, but so is a adat xt20.
We were all suprised how well the adat xt20 faired in the shootout.

[Mark Wheaton]

The thing that intrigues me about the Trak2 is the capability to connect to Protools direct via a Ambus card thereby allowing this unit to function as a 2 track mix down machine in addition to the multitrack I/O via the 888/24's in a system. So, a person could have three 888/24's and a trak 2 and have a full 24 track I/O plus a 2 track mixdown I/O system via the Trak 2. This coupled with say an Avalon 747 would create a pretty cool mixdown path. digidesign would do well to come out with an affordable version of the same.

[MMazurek]

Hey, you said "Digi" and "affordable" in the same sentence. http://duc.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/wink.gif

[Jules]

Frustrating when there are few real user stories to go by aint it...
http://duc.digidesign.com/ubb/images/icons/shocked.gif
Call Adam Cohen at Apogee and ask him where you can test drive one, tell him I sent you.
Jules

Julian Standen
London
UK

[Mergerboy]

All very interesting. Presently debating 888 vs. Trak2. Any more actual head-to-head feedback?

[Doug Rider]

I have setup and used the Trak2 with the Protools AMBus Card as the only audio interface with a Mix Cube Protools. The Trak2 sounded great.

My only issue with the Trak2, unlike any Digi hardware or the Apogee AD8000, is that it cannot be set to accept sample rate changes from Protools settings under the PT Hardware setup. If your working at only one sample rate all the time, this isn't a problem. But a post house that gets PT sessions from outside sources with different sample rates has to change the sample rate on the Trak2 box itself to match the PT session. Just one more thing that can go wrong in the fast and furious world of post production.

[Bryan]

Update:

So I did purchase the Trak2 back in June and I must say it is awesome!

I'm using it as part of my 'portable'/home system. It is the only interface hanging off of that system (mix3). The combo of features is why I bought it (headphone out, mic pres, ad/da, and of course direct protools ambus connection...all in 1 rack space) but the sound quality is really sweet.

There was an issue with the screen, and the apogee folks were good about getting it fixed.

Lastly, I haven't hooked it up yet, but there is now Mac software that will remotely control ALL settings in the unit (there are many settings!) via midi.

Take care,

Bryan

[ChaplainPC]

The unit does create quite a bit of heat as you might expect cramming so much stuff into a 1U machine. It also has a noticable fan. I opted for the PSX 100 SE and an Avalon 737.
Peace

[Lee Blaske]

This is probably a good time to sit tight and wait to see what Winter NAMM (1/17/02) brings. Lots of the equipment discussed in this thread may soon be obsolete.

Certainly, for the future, integrated mic-pre/convertor units are going to be superior in many respects to separate mic-pres going to line level convertors (like an 888|24). It's a simple matter of engineering design. A traditional mic pre does a lot of amplification to bring the signal level up to +4. When the signal gets into something like an 888|24, all that gain must be attenuated because the A/D chips need a low level signal. When you optimize the mic pre for the A/D chip, you solve the gain structure problem, and should end up with much better specs. It's just a matter of someone designing such a combo with a desirable character.

Presently, the Metric Halo Mobile i/o is such a unit, and the early adopters have been giving very good reports. MOTU also has the 896 on the way. It'll be interesting to see if Digi follows suit and releases an interface with high end mic pres (like a Digi 001, but higher quality and more than two). The only thing I fear is that if Digidesign does this, the preamps might be designed by Focusrite (as they did with the Control 24). Unfortunately, after some recent experiences, I've lost all respect for Focusrite equipment. I've also noticed that Focusrite has a very poor reputation on audio discussion lists these days.

Lee Blaske

[Purple power]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Doug Rider:
My only issue with the Trak2, unlike any Digi hardware or the Apogee AD8000, is that it cannot be set to accept sample rate changes from Protools settings under the PT Hardware setup.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Doug,

The latest firmware version of the Digi8+ Ambus card ( 3.1) does accept sample rate changes from Pro Tools. (make sure dip switch #2 is set to the closed position).

This is a free upgrade so please give us a call and we will either send you the chip or swap out the card, which ever is appropriate (depending how old the Digi8+ card is, there are other enhancements that may need to be done).

[Purple power]

Correction:

Sorry about the post holiday brain spasm re: Trak2 accepting sample rates from Pro Tools....

Doug you are absolutely right. The Trak2, even with the latest Digi8+ firmware does not support this feature. Hopefully it will in the near future, so stay in touch and when there's a solution we'll let you know.

Take care.

[Bill Esses]

I have been using a Trak2 since day one - fully blown - Digi8 card, DAC8 and AES card. This unit is fabulous. The Mic Pres definitely hold their own against just about anything out there. The routing possibilities are vast (albeit not for the faint at technical understanding)... and it has that great Apogee sound, UV22 and Soft Limit and Soft Saturate options. Plus... I've clocked other interfaces off of that clock and had them sound way better than they ever have. There really is nothing that does as much as a Trak2... and in 1 rack-space... and the remote control software is really cool too.. (in case you need to isolate the unit for quiet...i.e. you're recording vox in the control room). Highly recommended!!! images/icons/grin.gif

[EthanMorse]

I'm pretty anal when it comes to "perfection" and although I don't claim to be some "golden eared" engineer, I spent a few 6 hour days this past year testing out converters(drove the salesperson crazy...) I finally settled on the Apogee AD8000SE's... as far as sound goes nothing else sounded as natural as the these...NOTHING...(and I made it up to the Salesman by buying 4 of them images/icons/blush.gif)

Just in case anyone was wondering what my front end looks like... 16channels of API 3124+ pre's, and 16channels of Avalon AD2022.
I luuuuv 'em!

[Mergerboy]

Many thanks to all for all the input.

[Mergerboy]

Alright, I've decide to risk embarrassing myself with two naive questions, but life is short:

(1)If I understand the gain problem correctly, a -60 mic signal needs to be amped up to +4. Why, then, do most mic pres only provide roughly 65 of boost and not any more (i.e., provide for a slightly weaker input)? Re: the Trak2, is there any benefit to the fact that it boosts 90?

(2) To the point above about the 888's needing to reduce the gain because the A/Ds require a low level signal: (a) just out of curiosity, why? and (b) why not simply require less of a boost (say to something less than +4)?

Finally, I consistently hear the argument for greater modularity in all things (greater ability to upgrade; better quality due to design for more specific purpose), and yet the point about the ability to better address the gain stage problem makes sense too. Thoughts?

Again, much obliged.