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  #1  
Old 11-12-2016, 09:34 AM
AMIEL AMIEL is offline
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Default Pro tools HDX Delay Compensation Nightmare, AES issues

Hi.

I got HDX and really is been a nightmare.

Seems that the delay compensation do not work as intended at all, specially with AES send return.

I have so many issues, the sessions sounds way tighter with the playback engine in native.

So here is one of the issues that represents the instability of the delay compensation.
I am trying to use my Bricasti via AES in/out into the session.
But the issue here is that depending how many plug ins I have in the session (master and tracks), the Bricasti return comes late, as more plug ins, more "predelay".

it is incredibly noticeable by ear as can be 100ms or more.

Even sometimes with Delay Compensation OFF sound better!

I tested this with different Mac Pros 4,1 and 5,1 , different MacOS (yosemite and even Mountain Lion) , NEW SSD hard drive with fresh install of yosemite and pro tools 12.5.2 and just installed a couple of other plug ins. Ram tested, 3 different sets of RAM 16GB and 32GB, did apple hardware test 4 times in the Mac 5,1 2x6 core 2.4 ghz all passed great, this is why I did the test in other Mac 4,1 same issues occurs in any test, computer, MacOS etc...I even created new Test Pro Tools session to avoid any corruption that would happen in a bad session.


Check the screenshots how the bricasti returns late depending of the amount of plug ins that are in the session...and this is only a session with a vocal track!!

there are also the screenshots of the i/o settings and playback engine, i used that setting for years in TDM and Pro tools 10 no issues and anyway the AES routing is simple AES 5-6 out to bricasti In , Bricasti AES out to AES in

****in this test I connected the AES in cable to AES out ...so the Bricasti is totally out if the Equation.


Any advice?

Thanks!



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Reuven Amiel
Mixer/Producer.

Last edited by AMIEL; 11-13-2016 at 10:36 AM.
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  #2  
Old 11-13-2016, 08:21 AM
Watagushu2013 Watagushu2013 is offline
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Default Pro tools HDX Delay Compensation Nightmare, AES issues

Sorry for this question. But How many samples did you put for the delay in the HW insert delay?
That's the only place you can move the delay that is getting in to the system from your reverb i/o.
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  #3  
Old 11-13-2016, 09:31 AM
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K Roche K Roche is offline
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Default Re: Pro tools HDX Delay Compensation Nightmare, AES issues

Hummm??

I use My Bricasti on AES 1-2 On My Omni with PTHDN 12.6 and have not noticed any delay problems.

What exactly are the tracks in screen shot showing are they showing the vocal track sent to a new audio track or the Aux that the M7 is on recorded to an audio track ?
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Avid HD Omni I/O Interface ...Mid 2010 Mac Pro/ processor- 3.33 6-core Intel Xeon "Westmere" w/ Memory- 24 GB, Radeon Pulse RX 580 8GB GDDR5 Dual HDMI Graphics Card..... OS- Mojave 10.14.6, and PTHDN 2020.5 on on primary boot drive (SSD PCIe 512 GB Samsung SM951) FCPX files storage on Samsung 970 EVO 1TB and PT sessions storage on 2nd Samsung 970 EVO 1 TB -- both in dual drive Crest I/O PCIE controller adaptor card


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  #4  
Old 11-13-2016, 10:11 AM
AMIEL AMIEL is offline
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Default Re: Pro tools HDX Delay Compensation Nightmare, AES issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watagushu2013 View Post
Sorry for this question. But How many samples did you put for the delay in the HW insert delay?
That's the only place you can move the delay that is getting in to the system from your reverb i/o.
I did not put any delay in HW inserts, I am using my Digital EFFX thru AES send/Return, not as analog inserts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K Roche View Post
Hummm??

I use My Bricasti on AES 1-2 On My Omni with PTHDN 12.6 and have not noticed any delay problems.

What exactly are the tracks in screen shot showing are they showing the vocal track sent to a new audio track or the Aux that the M7 is on recorded to an audio track ?
These are the print AES returns (AES send from Vocal Track to an AUX track that receives AES, that AUX go thru a buss to an audio track that records that AES signal, so just Dry AES, same issue happens id goes straight to an audio track)

Those tracks shows the latency of the AES signal when Pro Tools have No Plug ins, few plug ins and more plug ins, as you see AES returns in different places depending how many plug ins are in the session, this is a session with only a vocal track, imagine the mess in a regular session.

Yes, Bricasti and my TCM3000 (AES) used to work perfect on PTHD10 with my TDM accell 3 rig.


Well, you are using HD Native right??
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Reuven Amiel
Mixer/Producer.
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  #5  
Old 11-13-2016, 03:00 PM
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K Roche K Roche is offline
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Default Re: Pro tools HDX Delay Compensation Nightmare, AES issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMIEL View Post
I did not put any delay in HW inserts, I am using my Digital EFFX thru AES send/Return, not as analog inserts.



These are the print AES returns (AES send from Vocal Track to an AUX track that receives AES, that AUX go thru a buss to an audio track that records that AES signal, so just Dry AES, same issue happens id goes straight to an audio track)

Those tracks shows the latency of the AES signal when Pro Tools have No Plug ins, few plug ins and more plug ins, as you see AES returns in different places depending how many plug ins are in the session, this is a session with only a vocal track, imagine the mess in a regular session.

Yes, Bricasti and my TCM3000 (AES) used to work perfect on PTHD10 with my TDM accell 3 rig.


Well, you are using HD Native right??
Yes I am on HD Native and I do not know for certain but I would not think that would make any difference.

Also I did not put in any delay in the HardWare inserts tab ( even though it is an insert and labeled "M7" on the inserts tab) and shows in the I/O selection of the inserts section on the track as M7.


The screen shots are confusing because you appear to be recording the "No Plug ins, Less Plugins and More Plugins" tracks, off of the main output bus 1-2 which will not give you the delay of the Bricasti AES return in isolation, but would give you the delay of the entire session .

You should record the AES Return by out putting just the Aux that the Bricasti is on to a separate bus, and have that be the input for the audio track to record just the reverb not the entire vocal or session. That will tell you if the AES Aux return is actually delayed compared to the vocal
As you can see in the screen shots below I have the output of the Bricasti ( M7) "Vox Vrb" track , set to bus 13-14 and I have the input of Audio 1 track set to bus 13-14 so this will record just the actual output coming from Bricasti AES Aux return track.



Also Note how much difference there is in the signal of the Audio 1 track ( very little ) compared to the Vox 3 track . The Audio 1 track is getting only the actual output of the reverb, not the entire dry vocal track (as appears to be the case in your screen shots) and even with some 20 plugins as well as an Analog compressor insert on the "2 Mix" track labeled "3U" in this the session,...... as you can see the reverb is in time with vocal ??????

__________________
System :
Avid HD Omni I/O Interface ...Mid 2010 Mac Pro/ processor- 3.33 6-core Intel Xeon "Westmere" w/ Memory- 24 GB, Radeon Pulse RX 580 8GB GDDR5 Dual HDMI Graphics Card..... OS- Mojave 10.14.6, and PTHDN 2020.5 on on primary boot drive (SSD PCIe 512 GB Samsung SM951) FCPX files storage on Samsung 970 EVO 1TB and PT sessions storage on 2nd Samsung 970 EVO 1 TB -- both in dual drive Crest I/O PCIE controller adaptor card


"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding" Albert Einstein

Enjoy the Journey
.... Kev...

Last edited by K Roche; 11-13-2016 at 03:45 PM.
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  #6  
Old 11-13-2016, 04:10 PM
AMIEL AMIEL is offline
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Default Re: Pro tools HDX Delay Compensation Nightmare, AES issues

I see that you have bricasti as Insert Right? so is your bricasti in analog mode? HW Inserts? that is a totally different situation if is like that ..

Anyway this way is actually the same way u are doing it, just I have the Bricasti on an Aux Track with AES Input with a an output send from the vocal track, you are just "inserting" Bricasti in that Aux Track and using a Bus as a send.
The AVID techs did not say was wrong this way, but they also have no answers for this.
This way was working perfectly on PTHD10 with my TDM Rig.

Also the situation of your HD Native in theory supposed to be equal, besides your card do not run DSP plug ins and track count.
But really there is an interaction I guess with HDX and the Native side, and I think this is where all the issues are happening.
At this point I am thinking a HD Native or PTHD Native may be more stable than HDX, I found weird interaction in the session and delay compnsation by mixing DSP and Native Plug ins, and also depending of the order and if they are in the master fader...weird stuff going on.

Thanks for your help.
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Reuven Amiel
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  #7  
Old 11-14-2016, 06:00 AM
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K Roche K Roche is offline
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Default Re: Pro tools HDX Delay Compensation Nightmare, AES issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMIEL View Post
I see that you have bricasti as Insert Right? so is your bricasti in analog mode? HW Inserts? that is a totally different situation if is like that ..

Anyway this way is actually the same way u are doing it, just I have the Bricasti on an Aux Track with AES Input with a an output send from the vocal track, you are just "inserting" Bricasti in that Aux Track and using a Bus as a send.
The AVID techs did not say was wrong this way, but they also have no answers for this.
This way was working perfectly on PTHD10 with my TDM Rig.

Also the situation of your HD Native in theory supposed to be equal, besides your card do not run DSP plug ins and track count.
But really there is an interaction I guess with HDX and the Native side, and I think this is where all the issues are happening.
At this point I am thinking a HD Native or PTHD Native may be more stable than HDX, I found weird interaction in the session and delay compnsation by mixing DSP and Native Plug ins, and also depending of the order and if they are in the master fader...weird stuff going on.

Thanks for your help.
Having HD native I don't know about DSP interaction with native.

Yes the Bricasti is an insert and No it is in digital mode using AES 1-2 on my Omni (which is the only AES digital selection available on the Omni) but it is coming I/O on the position number 5-6 channels. here are my I/O tabs

Here is the "Input" tab.... The "A 1-2" on analog channels 1-2 is my analog Pre Amp... the "3U" is my analog compressor on analog channels 3-4 ....and the "M7 Vrb" is my Bricasti on AES 1-2 position channels 5-6


Same on the " Output" tab except "Stereo Mon" are what I have labeled my main outputs 1-2 which also shows on my "Bus" tab in the 1-2 position (I'll post a screen shot in a short while)


And here is the " Inserts" tab what this does is have both the analog 3U compressor and the digital AES Bricasti (labeled "M7" ) show up as inserts selection on the track. But in the drop down for the track "Inserts" they are under the "I/O" selection at the bottom, not from the "Bus" selection

__________________
System :
Avid HD Omni I/O Interface ...Mid 2010 Mac Pro/ processor- 3.33 6-core Intel Xeon "Westmere" w/ Memory- 24 GB, Radeon Pulse RX 580 8GB GDDR5 Dual HDMI Graphics Card..... OS- Mojave 10.14.6, and PTHDN 2020.5 on on primary boot drive (SSD PCIe 512 GB Samsung SM951) FCPX files storage on Samsung 970 EVO 1TB and PT sessions storage on 2nd Samsung 970 EVO 1 TB -- both in dual drive Crest I/O PCIE controller adaptor card


"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding" Albert Einstein

Enjoy the Journey
.... Kev...

Last edited by K Roche; 11-14-2016 at 02:29 PM.
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  #8  
Old 11-14-2016, 10:55 PM
Watagushu2013 Watagushu2013 is offline
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Default Pro tools HDX Delay Compensation Nightmare, AES issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by K Roche View Post
Yes I am on HD Native and I do not know for certain but I would not think that would make any difference.

Also I did not put in any delay in the HardWare inserts tab ( even though it is an insert and labeled "M7" on the inserts tab) and shows in the I/O selection of the inserts section on the track as M7.


The screen shots are confusing because you appear to be recording the "No Plug ins, Less Plugins and More Plugins" tracks, off of the main output bus 1-2 which will not give you the delay of the Bricasti AES return in isolation, but would give you the delay of the entire session .

You should record the AES Return by out putting just the Aux that the Bricasti is on to a separate bus, and have that be the input for the audio track to record just the reverb not the entire vocal or session. That will tell you if the AES Aux return is actually delayed compared to the vocal
As you can see in the screen shots below I have the output of the Bricasti ( M7) "Vox Vrb" track , set to bus 13-14 and I have the input of Audio 1 track set to bus 13-14 so this will record just the actual output coming from Bricasti AES Aux return track.



Also Note how much difference there is in the signal of the Audio 1 track ( very little ) compared to the Vox 3 track . The Audio 1 track is getting only the actual output of the reverb, not the entire dry vocal track (as appears to be the case in your screen shots) and even with some 20 plugins as well as an Analog compressor insert on the "2 Mix" track labeled "3U" in this the session,...... as you can see the reverb is in time with vocal ??????



When I use my lexicon reverb I have to put the latency that has (the info is in the manual) into the Hw inserts view to be able to avoid additional delay caused from the round trip. You have to do that. Another thing to check in the I/O window is if there's input or output compensate after recording. That is another confusing parameter to deal when using external hardware, analog or digital.
I don't remember if the TDM systems had different setups in regarding this.
I run HDX on 12.6 with a lot of analog hardware and a lot of different interfaces to. Also with 2 UAD -2's Very stable and more robust than native for big projects and mixes in my opinion. No crashes, very smooth.

Hope to help.
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  #9  
Old 11-15-2016, 05:34 AM
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K Roche K Roche is offline
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Default Re: Pro tools HDX Delay Compensation Nightmare, AES issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watagushu2013 View Post
When I use my lexicon reverb I have to put the latency that has (the info is in the manual) into the Hw inserts view to be able to avoid additional delay caused from the round trip. You have to do that. Another thing to check in the I/O window is if there's input or output compensate after recording. That is another confusing parameter to deal when using external hardware, analog or digital.
I don't remember if the TDM systems had different setups in regarding this.
I run HDX on 12.6 with a lot of analog hardware and a lot of different interfaces to. Also with 2 UAD -2's Very stable and more robust than native for big projects and mixes in my opinion. No crashes, very smooth.

Hope to help.
First you are quoting me but I am not the OP and I have not noticed any delay issues caused buy my Bricasti.

Even thought I have not entered any numbers into the HW Insert Delay box. I am guessing Automatic Delay Compensation is compensating for any round trip delay because if you look at the screen shot of my mix window on the Aux track (labeled "Vox Vrb" it is the dark purple one 5th from right) with the Bricasti on it, you will see there is something like 1045 samples compensation . And I think perhaps that section in the manual that talks about having to manually enter delay numbers may have been written before Automatic Delay Compensation was a feature in PT . ??

The reason I am saying this is because as per my screen shot of the edit window there does not appear to be any delay (other than the fact that I do have my M7 running with 80 ms Pre Delay ) What I will do tomorrow is test my outboard analog compressor and see if there is any delay. But again I am wondering if ADC actually makes manual adjustment unnecessary.

Below is a video done by James Lugo (one of the mods on Gear Slutz) where it looks like he is finding ADC handles the delay in outboard FX when they are used as Inserts

Also if you note on my edit window screen shot, the Audio 1 track (the recorded output from the Bricasti Aux track ) is lined up time wise with the vocal audio track and not showing any delay.

And it is not clear as to what this statement means "Another thing to check in the I/O window is if there's input or output compensate after recording. That is another confusing parameter to deal when using external hardware, analog or digital. There does not appear to be any thing indicating "input or output compensate " in the I/O window can you explain and or post a screen shot ?

Here is the link to the video https://youtu.be/ULdlBlbwRxw
__________________
System :
Avid HD Omni I/O Interface ...Mid 2010 Mac Pro/ processor- 3.33 6-core Intel Xeon "Westmere" w/ Memory- 24 GB, Radeon Pulse RX 580 8GB GDDR5 Dual HDMI Graphics Card..... OS- Mojave 10.14.6, and PTHDN 2020.5 on on primary boot drive (SSD PCIe 512 GB Samsung SM951) FCPX files storage on Samsung 970 EVO 1TB and PT sessions storage on 2nd Samsung 970 EVO 1 TB -- both in dual drive Crest I/O PCIE controller adaptor card


"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding" Albert Einstein

Enjoy the Journey
.... Kev...

Last edited by K Roche; 11-15-2016 at 06:47 AM.
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  #10  
Old 11-15-2016, 08:16 AM
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arche3 arche3 is offline
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Default Re: Pro tools HDX Delay Compensation Nightmare, AES issues

in the in/out setup window in HDtdm and HDx there is a square checkbox on input tab and output tab. "compensate for delay after recording". this moves the audio in place after record passes into the proper time alignment based on ADC of system. I never used a Native and or Native HD so I am not sure if it is there in a native system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K Roche View Post

And it is not clear as to what this statement means "Another thing to check in the I/O window is if there's input or output compensate after recording. That is another confusing parameter to deal when using external hardware, analog or digital. There does not appear to be any thing indicating "input or output compensate " in the I/O window can you explain and or post a screen shot ?

Here is the link to the video https://youtu.be/ULdlBlbwRxw
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