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  #1  
Old 10-14-2012, 03:13 AM
Marsdy Marsdy is offline
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Default TDM support in Pro Tools 11 petition.

I have a started a petition with the aim of persuading Avid to retain TDM support in Pro Tools 11.

https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitio...ols-version-11

Also you can vote on Pro Tools Ideascale here:
http://protools.ideascale.com/a/dtd/...79?submitted=1

I am fully aware that Avid has stated it is not possible to support TDM in a 64 bit version of Pro Tools, but more on this later.

Take a look here:
http://www.avid.com/US/categories/Audio-Plug-ins/AAX It makes for depressing reading nearly a year after HDX's release.
ADMIN EDIT: That Product Page is unfortunately not current (web team is aware), so http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=325386 lists the current AAX Plug-Ins that are available.
There is undeniably a chronic lack of 3rd party plug-in support for HDX....
* Waves, undoubtedly the leading 3rd party plug-in developer currently has no plans to support HDX.
* Soundtoys has not yet made a decision wether it will support HDX.
* URS and Abbey Road.... No mention of HDX versions anywhere.
* Eventide has yet to release an HDX version of its flagship Anthology bundle.
* Audioease has said there will be an HDX version of Altiverb but are unsure when it will be released.
* It appears Avid itself has yet to convert all it’s OWN plug-ins to HDX format! This almost a year after HDX's release! I have been VERY reliably informed as to why this is the case and it is VERY worrying.
* Sonnox has only released two HDX compatible plug-ins so far.
* TC Electronics has said it will NEVER be producing HDX versions of its products.
* There will be no HDX versions of Amp Farm, Echo Farm and Virus Indigo.
* Well done to Native Instruments for getting a few AAX virtual instruments released but otherwise the AAX VI situation is dire.
* VSL has said there will be an AAX version of VE Pro but who knows when!!!

I have been reliably informed that 3rd party developers are holding back on HDX development to see how HDX sales pan out. But many of us are NOT going to invest in HDX because there are so few 3rd party plug-ins available. A vicious circle that hurts both Avid and the end user.

So.... It is clear that many of the above developers will not be supporting HDX for some considerable time, if ever. This leaves TDM users high and dry when Pro Tools 11 is released, probably in Q1 next year. Therefore, many of us will have no option but to skip the PT11 upgrade.... And we now know what happens when you skip a Pro Tools upgrade! Remember the upgrade prices for Pro Tools 10 when upgrading from version 8 and below?

In short, an upgrade to Pro Tools 11 and HDX is simply not going to be feasible for many of us. There just aren't enough plug-ins available. We need more time, hence my petition to persuade Avid to retain TDM compatibility with Pro Tools 11.

Now let me return to the matter of Avid's claim that TDM support is not possible in a 64 bit version of Pro Tools.

I have been told by a leading industry figure with an immense amount of expertise and experience that it is perfectly possible to support TDM in a 64 bit version of Pro Tools. Understandably, this person wishes to remain anonymous! I was told this... TDM is already working in a 64 bit environment. The TDM card is on the PCI bus and in communication with the host. Mac OSX is now fully 64 bit and yet the TDM cards still work.

As I write this, my Mac Pro has started up in 64 bit kernal mode and a fully 64 bit version of OSX is running. I've opened Logic in 64 bit mode and it is playing audio through my TDM system via the Avid Core Audio Driver. Is this driver 32 bit.....? I don't know but the point is, a 64 bit application IS working with a TDM system.

Furthermore, all the other audio hardware manufacturers have made the transition to 64 bit including UAD with its DSP PCI cards. Is it really that much more difficult for Avid to do the same with TDM?

It seems to me the decision to stop support for TDM with Pro Tools 11 is a marketing one and NOT a technical one.

Please Avid... for the benefit of your loyal customers, keep TDM going a little while longer until HDX is ready for primetime.
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Avid HDX1, PT12 HD, HD I/O 16x16, Avid S6 M10 24-5, 2013 12 Core Mac Pro. Robby The Robot meter bridge ornament.

Last edited by DigiTechSupt; 10-15-2012 at 02:38 PM. Reason: Added a link for the current AAX plug-ins.
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  #2  
Old 10-14-2012, 03:24 AM
Marsdy Marsdy is offline
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Default Re: TDM support in Pro Tools 11 petition.

So if 3rd party plug-in development is reliant on how well HDX sells.... Let's look at the figures.... This is what I've been told... (I am clearly being fed information here, the source wishes to be known as Deep Throat!)

Quote:
Avid has stuffed the channel hard with a lot of products, at least 1000 probably more, but that channel has not sold that many, I would guess maybe 200 to 300 enthusiasts and early adopters and a few large post house that need large track counts.
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Avid HDX1, PT12 HD, HD I/O 16x16, Avid S6 M10 24-5, 2013 12 Core Mac Pro. Robby The Robot meter bridge ornament.
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  #3  
Old 10-14-2012, 03:30 AM
Dism Dism is offline
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Default Re: TDM support in Pro Tools 11 petition.

It's not about whether or not the hardware will work in a 64 bit environment, it's about whether or not the plugins and engine will while hosted on the card. Of course you can have sound running through the cards, but I highly doubt you could host a 64 bit Pro Tools engine on a TDM card, or run 64 bit plugins on it.

If you want to stick with TDM, stick with Pro Tools 10. There you go.

You can talk about reliability of sources and yadda yadda, but it's all hearsay until someone can prove it. Plus... TDM had a good run. It's time for something new. The fact that it's even still supported these days is almost a miracle.
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  #4  
Old 10-14-2012, 03:51 AM
Marsdy Marsdy is offline
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Default Re: TDM support in Pro Tools 11 petition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dism View Post
Of course you can have sound running through the cards, but I highly doubt you could host a 64 bit Pro Tools engine on a TDM card, or run 64 bit plugins on it.
Pure, uninformed speculation on your part.

But this is the point, according to my source who has a LOT more information and expertise than you.... a 64 bit Pro Tools CAN run a TDM card including plug-in and mix processing

AND 64 bit precision plug-ings don't run efficiently on HDX cards any way. Dave Trembley has already alluded to this. TDM is 48 bit fixed point. Many experts argue this is superior to the 32 floating point resolution used in HDX. I know of one developer who told Avid this four years ago and told Avid NOT to change the DSP core as the effort in porting will never be worth it. They suggested two alternative solutions which Avid refused to accept.

Choose to doubt the validity of my source(s) if you wish but what if he or she or they are correct?
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  #5  
Old 10-14-2012, 03:57 AM
Dism Dism is offline
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Default Re: TDM support in Pro Tools 11 petition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post
Choose to doubt the validity of my source if you wish but what if he or she or they are correct?
Then it won't matter because the point is moot?

We got a lot of warning on this one, and this kind of thing has been tried before. Happened when G5s went obsolete. Happened when the MBox 1 went obsolete. Probably happened when Mix went obsolete, too.

How exactly will Avid make money from people still using TDM cards? Are we to expect them to keep shrinking and shrinking until Pro Tools is their only priority, because only we think we matter? They gotta sell new products to survive. Besides, I'm pretty sure we still have close to another year left of PT10.
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  #6  
Old 10-14-2012, 04:05 AM
Marsdy Marsdy is offline
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Default Re: TDM support in Pro Tools 11 petition.

Dan....

Did you miss my post above... The one with the quote:
Quote:
Avid has stuffed the channel hard with a lot of products, at least 1000 probably more, but that channel has not sold that many, I would guess maybe 200 to 300 enthusiasts and early adopters and a few large post house that need large track counts.
By the look of things, HDX os NOT doing that well. Avid is even competing against itself in the the form of HD Native. This MUST be cannibalising some HDX sales and may be lot. People who were previously in the market for an Avid DSP solution are now buying HD Native.... Nice marketing move Avid... Again... the buck stops at Gary G.Greenfield

Edit:
Quote:
How exactly will Avid make money from people still using TDM cards?
By selling expensive PT11 upgrades to the 100,000 TDM users out there..... There are very few HDX users they can sell to by comparison.
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  #7  
Old 10-14-2012, 04:23 AM
Dism Dism is offline
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Default Re: TDM support in Pro Tools 11 petition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post
Dan....

Did you miss my post above... The one with the quote:


By the look of things, HDX os NOT doing that well. Avid is even competing against itself in the the form of HD Native. This MUST be cannibalising some HDX sales and may be lot. People who were previously in the market for an Avid DSP solution are now buying HD Native.... Nice marketing move Avid... Again... the buck stops at Gary G.Greenfield
But you're not making it better by suggesting they hold on to the past. Petition for Waves to make AAX-DSP or for GG to be axed. They can't move forward and backwards at the same time.
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  #8  
Old 10-14-2012, 04:27 AM
Marsdy Marsdy is offline
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Default Re: TDM support in Pro Tools 11 petition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dism View Post
But you're not making it better by suggesting they hold on to the past. Petition for Waves to make AAX-DSP or for GG to be axed. They can't move forward and backwards at the same time.
They already have.... It's called Pro Tools 10. It supports TDM/RTAS AND AAX Native.....

Pro Tools 10 is a transitionary release. I am suggesting Avid do the same thing with Pro Tools 11 because of the chronic shortage of HDX plug-ins.

In case you hadn't noticed. I am already petitioning Waves for an HDX version.
http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=328564
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  #9  
Old 10-14-2012, 04:41 AM
Dism Dism is offline
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Default Re: TDM support in Pro Tools 11 petition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post
They already have.... It's called Pro Tools 10. It supports TDM/RTAS AND AAX Native.....

Pro Tools 10 is a transitionary release. I am suggesting Avid do the same thing with Pro Tools 11 because of the chronic shortage of HDX plug-ins.

In case you hadn't noticed. I am already petitioning Waves for an HDX version.
http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=328564
It won't be.

Pro Tools desperately needs a rewrite. Eliminating RTAS and TDM in one swoop is the easiest way to make the transition to 64 bit. If Pro Tools 11 is yet another transitional release... it is doomed.
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  #10  
Old 10-14-2012, 04:56 AM
Marsdy Marsdy is offline
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Default Re: TDM support in Pro Tools 11 petition.

Eliminating RTAS and TDM in one swoop is the easiest way for Avid to force HDX sales. And if they are being "economical with the truth" regarding the fact that it is technically impossible to implement TDM in a 64 bit version of Pro Tools then we are all been taken for a ride....

Either way, Greenfield has rid Avid of it's most talented US engineers and farmed out development to the Ukraine to cut costs.... And yet four years on, Avid's share price is STILL in the doldrums and we the end users are getting a raw deal.....
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