HD Native Upgrade or Downgrade?

[lennieh]

Had a guy from Avid phone to ask if I had considered upgrading to HD Native.

So I asked what I would gain by trading in my HD2 Accel system apart from a £1000 hole in my bank account and the inability to run TDM plugins?

He didn't have an answer. I supplied one, which is that it would be easier to upgrade my PC to Sandybridge.

Anyone got any more?

[nst7]

With all due respect, Nerd513 has never even used HD Native, but has always come on here and criticized it for some reason, so I would definitely get some other opinions.

Generally speaking, those who have used it, have been very surprised at how powerful it is.

Here's a couple of threads over at Gearslutz.com, from people who have actually compared systems, and I think you'll find it very informative:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music...lly-works.html

and another interesting one:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/post-...shoot-out.html

[nerd513]

with all due respect i dont need to use HD native i read the specs... its a glorified native system and missing many of the crucial features of a real HD system...

[filosofem]

Originally Posted by nerd513

[Native HD] its a glorified native system and missing many of the crucial features of a real HD system...

Paint a picture for me?

[digidesigner]

It's good to see the Native card being okay for many people. For me the list of plugins that are TDM only makes it a no go for long time and having HD4 is very cool and stable if only windows would not act up. I copy the list here from the gearsluts forum. Actually it's not complete list of TDM only plugs... Echo Farm I see is missing and there might be others, I've not looked hard enough.

Acess Virus Indigo
Amp Farm 3.1
Antares/Microphone Modeler
Aphex Aural Exciter/Big Bottom
Avid Heat
Avid/Reverb One
Bruno
Cranesong/Phoenix
Drawmer/Drawmer Dynamics
Eventide/Anthology II Bundle
Focusrite/Liquid Mix HD
Impact
No-noise
Reso
Reverb One
Revibe
Soundtoys/Soundblender
Soundtoys Timeblender
TC/DVR 2
TC/Harmony 4
TC/Master X
TC/MD 3
TC/Non Lin 2
TC/Tube Tech CL 1b
URS Double Precision EQ's
Indigo
Serato Rane series Dynamics, Compressor and gate
Waves PS22
eventide factory
eventide octravox
eventide 949
TL space TDM (long/medium/short)

Edit:
I'll add what I know are TDM only and lot listed up there:
Echo Farm
TC VSS3

[nerd513]

paint a picture? here u go...well for one PTHD offers very low latency while tracking with plug ins... something HDnative users claim but it isnt listed in the specs... what is listed is low latency monitoring is turned off with plug ins on a track... that would be a no go for me... unlike some of these people In LE or Native i would always record in low latency monitoring mode not at the lowest buffer... so not bieng able to track with plugs would be a no go for me...also in an HD system the cards handle most of your processing so u know exactly where u stand as far as DSP power and computer power... with native u just kinda hope and pray and is very inconsistant as far as how much power u have available... so i could go on but those 2 things would make native a bit too dicey for me

[Dism]

Originally Posted by nerd513

paint a picture? here u go...well for one PTHD offers very low latency while tracking with plug ins... something HDnative users claim but it isnt listed in the specs... what is listed is low latency monitoring is turned off with plug ins on a track... that would be a no go for me... unlike some of these people In LE or Native i would always record in low latency monitoring mode not at the lowest buffer... so not bieng able to track with plugs would be a no go for me...also in an HD system the cards handle most of your processing so u know exactly where u stand as far as DSP power and computer power... with native u just kinda hope and pray and is very inconsistant as far as how much power u have available... so i could go on but those 2 things would make native a bit too dicey for me

Again... you not having a native system, means you have no experience with any of this...

Using a low buffer (64 or 32) means you cannot hear latency. Period. The round trip of plucking an electric guitar string and hearing it from the amp is more than a buffer of 64, even without the HD|N hardware. If you have a decently powerful computer, tracking at that low a buffer shouldn't be a problem at all. Hell, I know enough people who mix at that buffer, too.

This way... you can also use plugins on the track. Just because you don't believe it, doesn't mean it isn't true.

[Dism]

Originally Posted by digidesigner

Acess Virus Indigo - RTAS
Amp Farm 3.1 - RTAS
Antares/Microphone Modeler - RTAS
Aphex Aural Exciter/Big Bottom
Avid Heat - Not really a plugin
Avid/Reverb One - RTAS
Bruno
Cranesong/Phoenix
Drawmer/Drawmer Dynamics
Eventide/Anthology II Bundle
Focusrite/Liquid Mix HD - RTAS
Impact
No-noise
Reso
Reverb One - was already mentioned... and is RTAS.
Revibe
Soundtoys/Soundblender
Soundtoys Timeblender
TC/DVR 2
TC/Harmony 4
TC/Master X
TC/MD 3
TC/Non Lin 2
TC/Tube Tech CL 1b
URS Double Precision EQ's - RTAS
Indigo - mentioned before... and is RTAS
Serato Rane series Dynamics, Compressor and gate
Waves PS22
eventide factory
eventide octravox
eventide 949
TL space TDM (long/medium/short) ... but there is an RTAS version

Edit:
I'll add what I know are TDM only and lot listed up there:
Echo Farm
TC VSS3

Don't believe everything you read on Gearslutz.

At the end of the day, those are all really old plugins. Find me a new plugin that is TDM only. (HEAT doesn't count)

Realistically, TDM is dying off. If not for VENUE, it probably would have already died off. Something new will probably come from Avid to replace it, but as it stands, TDM is ancient technology.

[nerd513]

i would bet money that low latency monitoring is less latency than tracking at 64 or 32 so if u cant figure out the point than i dont know what to tell u...just because u think u cant hear latency doesnt mean there isnt any... i had people insist u can track with plug ins an an LE system with low buffers and i know for a fact that thats simply not that case... there is low latency monitoring for a reason on LE/native systems... where on a tru HD system there is no low latency monitoring feature... why? because its always low latency monitoring in HD no matter what... tracking at low buffers with rtas plug ins is not my kind of picnic srry... ill stick with tracking thru TDM plugins on an HD system

[Dism]

Originally Posted by nerd513

i would bet money that low latency monitoring is less latency than tracking at 64 or 32 so if u cant figure out the point than i dont know what to tell u...just because u think u cant hear latency doesnt mean there isnt any... i had people insist u can track with plug ins an an LE system with low buffers and i know for a fact that thats simply not that case... there is low latency monitoring for a reason on LE/native systems... where on a tru HD system there is no low latency monitoring feature... why? because its always low latency monitoring in HD no matter what... tracking at low buffers with rtas plug ins is not my kind of picnic srry... ill stick with tracking thru TDM plugins on an HD system

How do you know, though?

I used LLM for a while on an 003. When I switched to using a low buffer instead (64), there was no noticeable difference in latency. When tracking, all that really matters is the latency you can hear. Otherwise, performance isn't affected. You won't have phasing since everything being recorded will have the same amount of delay.

Second of all, everything has delay. TDM has delay. Yes, it's a fraction smaller than HD|N, but not enough to be noticeable or for the thousands of dollars of price difference to be worth while.

You keep talking specs and hypotheticals... but until you actually use your ears, you're not providing any evidence or experience.