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  #1  
Old 06-06-2002, 09:17 PM
Fave Fave is offline
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Default Terrified MIDI Offset person

Is this some weird voodoo?

Am I doing this right?

I record my audio kick track from my bussed MIDI kick>I measure the distance between the midi note and the audio hit in samples> That is what I should use as my global midi offset if i use the audio kick (using the audio kick, I would need the midi offset for the other midi voices)

Thanks
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  #2  
Old 06-07-2002, 08:31 AM
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DigiTechSupt DigiTechSupt is offline
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Default Re: Terrified MIDI Offset person

Quote:
Originally posted by Fave:
I record my audio kick track from my bussed MIDI kick>I measure the distance between the midi note and the audio hit in samples> That is what I should use as my global midi offset
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Correct.

Brent
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  #3  
Old 06-07-2002, 02:22 PM
kris whitten kris whitten is offline
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Default Re: Terrified MIDI Offset person

Brent,

Can you tell me why this "distance" changes?

I set the global midi offset and sometimes I have to "adjust" it b/c it is putting the attack at different spots depending on how many midi tracks I have, and what I am triggering.

I understand the attack will be different depending on the instrument, but I can record a kick track 3 times, and get a different offset number everytime. And sometimes individual hits are offset different amounts.

I guess this is midi sequencer slop?
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  #4  
Old 06-07-2002, 03:45 PM
CCash CCash is offline
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Default Re: Terrified MIDI Offset person

Yeah, slop's the tech term. You should see it using SoftSampleCell - over 11ms of slop per note. You should be seeing somewhere around 1-3ms for regular MIDI.
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  #5  
Old 06-07-2002, 03:59 PM
Seller Seller is offline
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Default Re: Terrified MIDI Offset person

Emagic with thier midi boxes...or Digi get your midi box out with time stamping.... [img]images/icons/frown.gif[/img]
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  #6  
Old 06-07-2002, 04:07 PM
lwilliam lwilliam is offline
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Default Re: Terrified MIDI Offset person

Yeah, one thing I've started to do is to record my midi click track to audio. I then use Strip Silence for the clicks and then Quantize the regions. That gives a very stable click to work with...
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  #7  
Old 06-07-2002, 04:09 PM
Carl Z Carl Z is offline
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Default Re: Terrified MIDI Offset person

It also changes depending on the sanple buffer size if your bringing your m tracks into the 001.

Carl
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  #8  
Old 06-07-2002, 07:18 PM
accession accession is offline
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Default Re: Terrified MIDI Offset person

Hi Fave,

Yeah, the fact the MIDI offset changes with your sample size is pathetic. This is a sore oversight. Because of this, I don't even use MIDI offset. What's the point? I have 5 MIDI instruments.... I can't be adjusting offsets for every single one of them just be cause I increased the sample latency. It should be automatically taken into consideration.

Secondly, the fact that the MIDI is so sloppy with increased audio strain on the CPU, as you've discovered, the MIDI offset is hideously unreliable, hence another reason why I don't bother.

To get the best MIDI to audio accuracy:

• Disable (ie. not 'bypass') all plug-ins using "<control>+<apple>+click on plug-in" or "<control>+<alt/option>+<apple>+click on plug-in row" to bring the CPU meter back to minimum.

• Record MIDI instrument to Audio.

• Zoom into first sign of movement from the audio waveform and 'shuffle' edit it back to the beat.

• Re-enable all plug-ins by repeating either method from step one.

• Done.

I have an Emagic AMT8 with active MIDI timestamping technology that's being wasted with Pro Tools. I will consider the Digidesign alternative when it becomes available - that is, if Pro Tools LE (or the equivalent) is made capable of in excess of 24 tracks.

Until then however, the option that would complement my AMT8 perfectly has just got even more attractive.

Phil
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  #9  
Old 06-08-2002, 04:07 PM
lwilliam lwilliam is offline
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Default Re: Terrified MIDI Offset person

CCash has his way, too. If it works...what the heck...

Hey Fave...It sounds like I need to clarify my "audio click track" method a little.

1. manually input four midi clicks with velocity higher on beat one (if you like)

2. make sure the region is exactly 1 bar long

3. duplicate ("repeat" function) the region "x" times in grid mode

4. strip silence on the track

5. quantize regions to quarter note

...and I ALWAYS record my midi tracks to audio and offset the whole track a nudge or so (if I don't cut it all up) before I mix. That also makes for an easier remix down the line. I always keep the original midi track in case I want to change the sound later.

Midi is fine for working out the arrangement, but when it comes time to mix, audio works so much better: try to fade a midi part to the careful audio fade you worked on and you'll see what I mean. Besides, who knows how much actual volume difference there is between controller 7 on 80 and on 95, whereas I KNOW how much volume difference there is between -8.2db and -6.2db.

You'll have to modify this a little if you have tempo changes in the song, but it's still basically the same. You can have the click follow your ritard (no jokes about drummers! [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] ) so that overdubbing is easier.

I'm sure there are other ways to do this, too...this just happens to work for me.
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  #10  
Old 06-08-2002, 07:35 PM
accession accession is offline
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Default Re: Terrified MIDI Offset person

Quote:
Originally posted by Fave:

"Zoom into first sign of movement from the audio waveform and 'shuffle' edit it back to the beat."

So you are saying that in this case you would ultimatly not be using midi in your song?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's correct, for the most part.

I use MIDI as a sketch pad, laying out grooves and other parts, however when it comes to the crunch, as much as I can gets recorded onto audio tracks. Percussion just won't stay tight as MIDI once the CPU ladder climbs with audio plug-ins - instead it tends to slip all over the place erratically. I only use MIDI on non-timing crucial parts, such as string pads and sound effects, and only then if I've run out of audio tracks. More tracks, please Digi?!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Quote:

When you say "shuffle edit" that inplies you would do this in shuffle mode...but that does not make sense...Im sure you just ment "shuffle" the tracked audio back in time.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I mean....

Use 'grid' mode to locate the beginning of the true beat, highlight the latency prior to the true audio waveform commencing, select 'shuffle' mode, and delete! And get out of 'shuffle' mode quick smart afterwards or really make a mess of the arrangement!

Quote:

"Emagic with thier midi boxes...or Digi get your midi box out with time stamping.... "

Are you saying that Emagic boxes dont have this isssue?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The AMT8 used in conjunction with Logic Audio will receive MIDI ahead of time to be stored in a buffer with strict instructions on when to send it. The result is ultra tight timing accros all MIDI ports. Note however, this technology only becomes applicable when used with Logic Audio software. Otherwise it performs as well as any other regular MIDI interface.

Note also, it can't send multiple messages out of the same port simultaneously. That's the 'just under 1ms per message' limitation of MIDI, however for the timing slop we're talking about, yes, the issue is eliminated.

With its own memory buffer and processor, the MIDI interface functions independently of the computer's own CPU priorities and the timing is improved dramtically as a result.

Digidesign are only too aware of the current limitations and that's why they're developing their own integrated 'time-stamping' MIDI interface. Steinerg already have a unit out (ie. Midex 8) that works in similar fashion with Cubase.

Quote:

"Yeah, one thing I've started to do is to record my midi click track to audio. I then use Strip Silence for the clicks and then Quantize the regions. That gives a very stable click to work with..."

So the best method for tracking MIDI click to audio might be...

<snip>

Or....

You would track you new MIDI to audio and repeat the quantize routine to match the click audio...
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Following my method (of disabling plug-ins), the MIDI metronome click is stable and the subsequent recording and playback of MIDI is tight enough to track as audio. I would only use an 'audio track' click for recording live audio performances while the CPU was under strain.

Quote:

Man....this is a major bummmer..... All I want is to make music....I definatly hope for a solution to this tha t does not involove these crssy tactics,but I guess untill then I will try to grasp this thing.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep, a major bummer indeed. Permanent solutions are on there way (eg. Digidesign Interface), but until then, there's these workarounds only. Perhaps other sequencers have better MIDI routines to offer more reguar timing, or it could be simply an OMS or USB issue.

Unfortunately, as computers got faster, we started clogging them up with more and more duties, and as a result, MIDI has come off second best... again.

Phil
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