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  #1  
Old 06-11-2009, 08:41 AM
LongRoad LongRoad is offline
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Default Question on proper levels

Just wanted to know, since I'm new to this, where a track input level should be (idealy) when setting up say drum mics and maybe DI guitars and also where the master fader level should be on a final mix. Obviously I know things can't be clipping etc but I don't know what the ideal is.

Thanks
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  #2  
Old 06-11-2009, 09:38 AM
tha]-[acksaw tha]-[acksaw is offline
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Default Re: Question on proper levels

If I'm tracking things one at a time, I usually start out with drums. Being that they will have the most attack and loudest transients (for the most part, but not always), I usually use this is a basis for my other track volumes to work around. I usually try and get the highest parts of my drums to be at least -5dB from clipping. I usually shoot for more like -10dB or more. I have heard that lots of guys on here say they get better quality audio out of PT when the levels are more relaxed. I've never found a solid number that everyone agrees with. Everyone has a different opinion, but keeping my loudest parts around -10db is what I shoot for on a regular basis. Hope I don't get chewed out for being wrong about this.

As far as Mastering and the loudest parts, you basically got it right. NO CLIPPING! I usually use a Mastering limiter across my master fader, even when recording just so I don't have to hear a clip, should one come up. The TRacks Limiter is my Plug of choice for keeping the levels from clipping during the tracking stages. I end up using the Waves L2 later when Mixing and Mastering, but it creates a delay problem, and the TRacks does not, so I don't use the L2 during tracking. I also keep my Master Fader at -.02 dB at all times, just to give myself a little room.

When it comes to mastering, once you deal with clipping issues, your only job is to manage the Dynamic Ranges of your final mix. Not to say there are not other things you need to work on with a master, like EQ and MulitBand Compressors, but thats a good place to start as a Noob. Stop clipping, and then don't squash it too much. The more technical stuff will come up the more you mess around with audio. If you want to know a bit about Dynamic Range and how it effects a master, read up here:

http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/node/1

They even have a plugin you can download for free that measures the Dynamic Range of your Master. I keep the plugin on my Master Fader at all times, and refer back to it on a regular basis. It won't give you any indication if you are making the master sounds any better (quality), but you can look very easily to make sure your not crushing your mix, and thats what I love about it. Not to mention, you can analyze a bunch of tracks after you cut them down to a stereo mix. If your cutting an album, its a good way to make sure all your tracks have a relative volume to each other. They give you both an RTAS plugin for the Master Fader and the Standalone program for generating a DR Report. I find them both VERY VERY useful.

Hope that helps a little! I'm sure you will get more feedback as the day progresses.

Nick
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  #3  
Old 06-11-2009, 11:11 AM
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O.G. Killa O.G. Killa is offline
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Default Re: Question on proper levels

Quote:
Originally Posted by LongRoad View Post
Just wanted to know, since I'm new to this, where a track input level should be (idealy) when setting up say drum mics and maybe DI guitars and also where the master fader level should be on a final mix. Obviously I know things can't be clipping etc but I don't know what the ideal is.

Thanks
It really depends on the instrument you are recording. Even though the peak meters in Protools are pretty quick, something like a tamborine or a snare drum rim shot can clip without kicking off the clipping indicator in protools. Conversely a bass guitar might be able to be turned up incredibly loud before it starts to clip the channel.

You best bet is to calibrate your LISTENING enviroment first...then if something sounds too loud you turn down the mic preamp, if it's too hot you turn it up.

There are a TON of posts on here with information on how to do it. Calibrating your listening levels is somewhat based on your distance to the speakers too. Most people that have a home setup and are working on music tend to sit pretty close to the speakers (like 3' away). If this is the case, you should probably use a lower SPL "goal".

For example... You might use a signal generator in Protools set to -18dBfs blasting pink noise. In most "specs" it says that the pink noise should be 85dB... but those specs are expecting you are at least 13'4" from the speakers... if you are closer you should use something like 82dB SPL or 79dB SPL. Even a cheap SPL meter from radio shack will work...

Once you have that set... mark where the monitor volume knob is (maybe use masking tape and a sharpie). That is your "reference" level. Whenever you start recording OR mixing... set the level to that mark and then adjust mic preamps (if tracking) or faders (if recording) so feel like they are the proper level. and DONT touch the monitor volume knob!!!! That is why most monitoring sections have a "dim" switch, so you can temporarily turn the volume down without moving the knob at all...

Anyway... try that and see if it helps...
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  #4  
Old 06-11-2009, 01:27 PM
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Default Re: Question on proper levels

My 2 cents. ALWAYS record at 24bit. I set gain so the meters reach above halfway in PT. I start with the master at -0 and will drag it down if I see it clipping. If I drag it down to -6 and it still clips(which can happen on a big session), I will reduce all the audio track levels by 2-3db. Invariably, plugins will increase the levels on many tracks(compression and any EQ boosts).
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  #5  
Old 06-11-2009, 06:58 PM
audiogeekzine audiogeekzine is offline
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Default Re: Question on proper levels

This thread (and many others it links to) has a ton of technical and practical info for levels.
http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewt...430&highlight=

To sum it up, gear is meant to run optimally at line level.
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  #6  
Old 06-11-2009, 11:02 PM
mindnoise mindnoise is offline
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Default Re: Question on proper levels

Quote:
Originally Posted by tha]-[acksaw View Post
The TRacks Limiter is my Plug of choice for keeping the levels from clipping during the tracking stages.
Nick
you donīt really mean this, donīt you? you cannot avoid a input signal to clipping by using a plug-in!

as for the rest of the Levels-question while recording external Signals:
Always record at 24 bit. Input levels of about 50% of the PT meter are ideal. Riding the Masterfader while recording does exactly nothing to avoid clipping as does riding the Audio Tracks Levels in PT. So you can leave the Levelmeter of the Audiotrack at Unity Gain (0dB) no use adjusting things here, because when you see the levels on the screen itīs already recorded and thus too late to avoid clipping. always control the Signal Level at the Analog Input of you recording device.
and last: avoid clipping no matter what.

best :)
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  #7  
Old 06-12-2009, 04:20 AM
tha]-[acksaw tha]-[acksaw is offline
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Default Re: Question on proper levels

Quote:
Originally Posted by mindnoise View Post
you donīt really mean this, donīt you? you cannot avoid a input signal to clipping by using a plug-in!
I use it on my master fader. Not on each track. Yes, I do realize that clipping will happened before ProTools in the A/D converter. Thanks!

I use it on my master fader, due to the fact that sometimes if I'm triple or quad tracking a vocal, guitar or string part, it will push the levels close to clip. Its more of a safety measure then anything else. Anyone working with multitrack drums knows, you might not clip an individual mic (track), but if you have several snare mics, plus bleed ,and overheads, plus room mics, its not that hard for all the accumulation to clip a master fader. Also, if you working with VI's, input clipping is not a issue, but output clipping is. Sometimes I want a VI way LOUD during tracking so I can hear it. Then I lower it later. Sometimes I overdub several of the same VI's. Its nice to have the Limiter there, just so you know your not gonna clip the Master Fader, and have to hear it in the headphones. If I'm working on HipHop I tend to keep the levels a bit hot, and sometimes the accumulation of the same sound multitracked, tends to push the limits.

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear on my first post.
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  #8  
Old 06-12-2009, 08:50 AM
mindnoise mindnoise is offline
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Default Re: Question on proper levels

HI tha]-[acksaw

good to know, I was suprised reading such a thing, from you.

I am mostly only using the masterfader to bring levels up for internal tracking VI, mixdown etc. since when you might not see clipping of the masterfader the internal mix bus could still be clipping. So I think itīs still better to bring down the Audio Tracks themselves.
Anyway when you actually HEAR it clipping your ears should be your final judge.

best
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Old 06-13-2009, 09:27 PM
peppertree peppertree is offline
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Default Re: Question on proper levels

You can't clip a master fader, or any internal bus whatsoever, in floating point DAWs such as LE or dis-M-powered.

It is impossible. 100%. Try it. Good luck!

You can clip the converters (AD or DA) and the filesystem on a bounce. That's it.

(Oh and Massey's plugins will clip because he wanted them to work the same way as TDM plugins, which always clip. He made an awful design decision there which I will constantly remind everyone about until he bails on it. Most likely he will bail on it when the new Pro Tools architecture comes out and it's floating point (which I assume it is). A few other plugins have saturation or clipping, some optional (e.g. apEQ) in floating point format (RTAS/VST etc.).)

So no you do not need to worry about clipping internally in LE and M-Powered. You have 900db of headroom to work in, with no sonic penalty whatsoever.

This means that you can set your levels based on either what sounds best to you or what is more convenient. A red light on a master fader in LE/MP is just there for informational purposes...it is not the same as a red light coming on from a or to a converter (unless the meter happens to be the same as the converter feed).

Prove this to yourselves. Take trim plugins and push up the faders and amp up a signal as much as you can, then pull it back down equal db with a master fader and/or trim plugins before hitting the DAC. Any distortion? Any sonic difference? No! You can make a nullfile even!

Again some plugins may sound different run at different levels, but most don't. The ones that do often have input trim knobs. A master fader is something very few people understand: it is just a coefficient on all the other faders sending to whatever output or bus it is assigned to, along with a set of post-fader inserts. You can have as many master faders as outputs and busses, and they have no sound of their own, and do not even "requantize" the samples being passed in: they simply alter the levels of all the faders feeding them. Period!

As for what levels you should track at, that is dictated entirely by the sound you are going for from your analog chain (preamp, compressors, ADCs, etc.). You might even like the sound of clipping your ADCs (some well-known mastering engineers do!). Gain staging is one of the most important things in audio engineering, and if you adhere to a specific numerical goal because someone said you should on the internet, you will not be taking advantage of most of the great things you can do with your analog investment.
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  #10  
Old 06-13-2009, 10:23 PM
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Default Re: Question on proper levels

[quote=peppertree;1411551]You can't clip a master fader, or any internal bus whatsoever, in floating point DAWs such as LE or dis-M-powered.

It is impossible. 100%. Try it. Good luck!

You can clip the converters (AD or DA) and the filesystem on a bounce. That's it.

(Oh and Massey's plugins will clip because he wanted them to work the same way as TDM plugins, which always clip. He made an awful design decision there which I will constantly remind everyone about until he bails on it. Most likely he will bail on it when the new Pro Tools architecture comes out and it's floating point (which I assume it is). A few other plugins have saturation or clipping, some optional (e.g. apEQ) in floating point format (RTAS/VST etc.).)

So no you do not need to worry about clipping internally in LE and M-Powered. You have 900db of headroom to work in, with no sonic penalty whatsoever.

quote]
I have to disagree here. While you may have emprirical evidence on paper showing that, my experience tells me otherwise. I used to never use a master fader(so I had no indication of any master/mix bus clipping). I tended to record and mix hot and will push tracks up using plugins(nothing to the red, but very close). I started to find my final 2 mixes sounding crunchy(made even worse by mp3 conversion). I would then pull all the audio tracks down by 3-6db and bounce again, and the new bounce would be clean and crisp. Once I started using a master fader, I would get an indication that "the crunchies" were aproaching so I would back things down. It does not seem to matter whether I drop the master, or all the audio tracks. The result is a cleaner final mix. I also remember hearing that LE actually has a total of 48db of headroom on the mix bus. Adding upwards of 40 tracks running hot can chew up that headroom. As always, YMMV, but my experiments have shown me that you can clip the mix bus and you can hear it.

BTW........"dis-M-powered"...I love it!
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