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  #11  
Old 01-02-2016, 12:38 AM
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JFreak JFreak is offline
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Default Re: Latency and I/O

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael c View Post
We run at 48k with a 128 buffer on a TDM system. Musicians and singers have never had issues with that setting.

As we move more than likely to a Native HD system this year, I was wondering if there is any added advantage to staying with an Avid interface vs other manufacturers strictly on the latency issue and not sound quality.
No.

And even if you ran TDM system with a 0 setting (TDM-only) it would still not be zero latency, albeit very fast without plugins. In real life, though, I found out that I usually used ~350 samples for TDM processing, which is +7ms and nobody had a problem with it "because TDM is so fast".

Now I use HDN and it gives me sub 2ms roundtrip at 96k and all the native processing I can run on the CPU. But somehow someone managed to hear a delay on her cans. (needless to say I did nothing but said I made it faster and the problem disappeared)

The real advantage of HDN is its DigiLink connectors, which makes it possible to connect 64 Avid i/o ("use your old boxes" has worked for me so far) but if you're fine with 3rd party 32 i/o limitation you could very well use some other brand converters and have lower latency than Avid's.

But as said, that really serves no purpose. Anything faster than 10ms (total) should be fine with artists.
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  #12  
Old 01-02-2016, 01:35 PM
michael c michael c is offline
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Default Re: Latency and I/O

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Originally Posted by propower View Post
If you track with all TDM plugins on the record enabled channels (no native on these - elsewhere is fine) your latency is ~2.4ms today to the artist (no dependence on buffer). If you moved to HD Native and track at 128 with an AVID I/O you will have ~7.2ms. Other converters won't help much (as I already detailed above). The DAW buffer is already 256/48k = 5.33ms. Whether this is acceptable or not for you is all up to you.

I will add that at 44.1kHz the AVID I/O is 1.9ms A/D + D/A time. Many other I/Os are actually much faster at 44.1 and are more like 1ms (lynx Aurora comes to mind). This will certainly help. But if your buffer is truly 128 then 6ms - 7 ms RTL is not much difference to me (both pretty high).
We never track with DSP plugs these days and never use any plugs on the record enabled channels. We use 1073 pre-s and the only 'effect' we may use is a Native reverb or delay as an insert on the channel being recorded.

Sounds like there is no benefit to Avid I/O other than the 32 input issue?
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  #13  
Old 01-03-2016, 05:37 AM
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Default Re: Latency and I/O

Thank you all for your replies...

The question for me boils down to using Avid HDN (PCI or thunderbolt), for lowering latencies.
From what I've read, there is no real life advantage in using this HW.
The RME PCIe interfaces I use are quick.
I cannot get RTL below 5/6ms.

I read somewhere that using Avid HW with PT HD would give me a 2ms RTL, regardless of the buffer size. It seemed strange, unless this only referred to HDX and using only DSP plugins, and still this seems strange. Can anyone enlighten me?

Right now, the DAD and Ravenna solution presented are viable, but expensive. My main goal is to reduce RTL maintaining my AES connected converters, that in my case are Forssell and Mytek, but can be any brand. I really don't like to be limited in choice by the interface, and that is what the trend is right now...

Focusrite seem to offer a Dante solution that interfaces directly with Avid HW, but if Avid's own HW has 2ms latency then there is no point, except being able to compensate properly for HW inserts, am I right?

Z.
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  #14  
Old 01-03-2016, 05:45 AM
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Default Re: Latency and I/O

HDN@96kHz can do sub 2ms
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  #15  
Old 01-03-2016, 06:21 AM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is offline
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Default Re: Latency and I/O

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Seas View Post
I read somewhere that using Avid HW with PT HD would give me a 2ms RTL, regardless of the buffer size. It seemed strange, unless this only referred to HDX and using only DSP plugins, and still this seems strange. Can anyone enlighten me?
Yes. The only way this statement could make sense is with a DSP based system where there is no software IO buffer needed that adds latency.
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  #16  
Old 01-03-2016, 10:27 AM
propower propower is offline
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Default Re: Latency and I/O

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Seas View Post
Thank you all for your replies...

The question for me boils down to using Avid HDN (PCI or thunderbolt), for lowering latencies.
From what I've read, there is no real life advantage in using this HW.
The RME PCIe interfaces I use are quick.
I cannot get RTL below 5/6ms.

I read somewhere that using Avid HW with PT HD would give me a 2ms RTL, regardless of the buffer size. It seemed strange, unless this only referred to HDX and using only DSP plugins, and still this seems strange. Can anyone enlighten me?

Right now, the DAD and Ravenna solution presented are viable, but expensive. My main goal is to reduce RTL maintaining my AES connected converters, that in my case are Forssell and Mytek, but can be any brand. I really don't like to be limited in choice by the interface, and that is what the trend is right now...

Focusrite seem to offer a Dante solution that interfaces directly with Avid HW, but if Avid's own HW has 2ms latency then there is no point, except being able to compensate properly for HW inserts, am I right?

Z.
First off - this is what HD Native does in the latency department with AVID converters
http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=344994

You will have to tell us what the A/D and D/A times are for your Mytek or Forssell since I see no mention of this key spec in a quick look at their websites.

You will also have to tell us your sample rate and if you insist on being able to monitor through PT software and plugins or if a parallel 3rd party mixer is acceptable.

As far as possible A/D to AES to ProTools to AES to 3rd party D/A goes there are many possible configurations including HDX, HD Native and 3rd party. At 96kHz and 64buffer many of these can do ~2ms. For consistent less than this with no dependence on buffer you will need DSP which comes in many many forms.

Just to give one possible scenario
PT12 Vanilla
DiGiGrid IOC (16ch of AES in/out)
SoundGrid Server One (DSP engine)
Uses eMotion mixer or for just a few channels - StudioRack plugin in PT

0.8ms SoundGrid processing latency (at 44.1k or 96k) plus a a little for digital through the IOC (~0.2ms to 0.3ms) plus whatever your A/D D/A time is.
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Last edited by propower; 01-04-2016 at 01:51 PM.
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  #17  
Old 01-05-2016, 04:47 AM
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Default Re: Latency and I/O

Quote:
Originally Posted by propower View Post
First off - this is what HD Native does in the latency department with AVID converters
http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=344994

You will have to tell us what the A/D and D/A times are for your Mytek or Forssell since I see no mention of this key spec in a quick look at their websites.

You will also have to tell us your sample rate and if you insist on being able to monitor through PT software and plugins or if a parallel 3rd party mixer is acceptable.

As far as possible A/D to AES to ProTools to AES to 3rd party D/A goes there are many possible configurations including HDX, HD Native and 3rd party. At 96kHz and 64buffer many of these can do ~2ms. For consistent less than this with no dependence on buffer you will need DSP which comes in many many forms.

Just to give one possible scenario
PT12 Vanilla
DiGiGrid IOC (16ch of AES in/out)
SoundGrid Server One (DSP engine)
Uses eMotion mixer or for just a few channels - StudioRack plugin in PT

0.8ms SoundGrid processing latency (at 44.1k or 96k) plus a a little for digital through the IOC (~0.2ms to 0.3ms) plus whatever your A/D D/A time is.
Thank you propower for your suggestions.
Waves DSP solution is an elegant one, but would make me limited to WAVES plugins...
In order to have 32 ch I/O I have now with my RME HDSPe I would have to buy 1 Server + 2 IOC yes?
Z.
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  #18  
Old 01-05-2016, 05:43 AM
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Default Re: Latency and I/O

There are many 3rd party options since PT9 but Avid's are the only fully supported and trouble-free ones. Even old blue DigiDesign interfaces are still fully functional (not supported) and that is the beauty of DigiLink stuff.
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  #19  
Old 01-05-2016, 10:06 AM
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Default Re: Latency and I/O

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Seas View Post
Thank you propower for your suggestions.
Waves DSP solution is an elegant one, but would make me limited to WAVES plugins...
In order to have 32 ch I/O I have now with my RME HDSPe I would have to buy 1 Server + 2 IOC yes?
Z.
Yes - it will take two IOCs. As far as Waves only - that it just for low latency monitoring to the performers. The session can have whatever you like in it with no impact on RTL for a live track.

Now 32 channels of Mytek, Forssell or similar is not a cheap bunch of converters. And 32 channels of that into pro tools is not going to be cheap either. With that kind of investment going (and assuming there are Mic Pres, mics and everything else that makes a top notch recording room - the idea of just going with a pair of Digital 192s (or AVID I/Os) + either HDN or HDX is a very conservative and as JFreak said (and I mostly agree - but is anything really trouble free - LOL!) - is a totally supported platform for AVID - including all current control surfaces and future AVID ones.

So maybe you have to explain a little more about how this system came about, what its used for and what are the top 3 priorities in changing it.

Lastly - I have always heard that RME had great and solid tech. RTL of 5/6ms sounds wrong to me already. I would investigate what is causing this. I would expect these converters and that interface to be more like 2ms (maybe better) at 96kHz and 64buffer.
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  #20  
Old 01-05-2016, 10:39 AM
Craig F Craig F is offline
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Default Re: Latency and I/O

the other thing HDN/HDX cards let your run is a Sync HD for; SMPTE and other Time Code reading/generation, limited VSOing of the system and triggering Recording Lights
if any of that is of interest to you
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