Recording Drums with digi-002 console

[mcojoc]

Hey all,

I did some recording sessions yesterday for a band, and the drum recordings were horrific. It is obviously the signal chain/microphones I'm using. The snare sounded like a cardboard box being hit even with 2 mics on it (one above, one below that was phase reversed SM57's)... Even after much experiementation with placement! Additionally, I couldn't get the gain low enough to stop clipping on the bass drum or snare mics even with 10 db pad in place and the console gain all the way down. Thank god for sound replacer!

Anyway this got me to thinking. How do others record good drum sounds using the digi-002 console? The shortcomings I see are that the digi-002 console has no hardware EQ for me to be able to see if I have a useable sound before I actually record, and low-latency monitoring is necessary so, software eq's are out of the question during the recording phase....

From a signal chain standpoint, I believe I need at least 6 channels of eq/compression or limiting between the digi-002 and drum mics so I can dial in sounds prior to recording... (or do hardware inserts work with low latency monitoring in place?)

Does anyone have any suggestions for hardware/techniques they use to record drums? I'd like to be able to get reasonable sounds without cheating by using Sound Replacer.... A search on the subject turned up nothing (unless my search keywords suck....)

Thanks in advance for any/all info!

-- Mitch

[Naagzh]

Hey all,

I did some recording sessions yesterday for a band, and the drum recordings were horrific. It is obviously the signal chain/microphones I'm using. The snare sounded like a cardboard box being hit even with 2 mics on it (one above, one below that was phase reversed SM57's)... Even after much experiementation with placement! Additionally, I couldn't get the gain low enough to stop clipping on the bass drum or snare mics even with 10 db pad in place and the console gain all the way down. Thank god for sound replacer!

Anyway this got me to thinking. How do others record good drum sounds using the digi-002 console? The shortcomings I see are that the digi-002 console has no hardware EQ for me to be able to see if I have a useable sound before I actually record, and low-latency monitoring is necessary so, software eq's are out of the question during the recording phase....

From a signal chain standpoint, I believe I need at least 6 channels of eq/compression or limiting between the digi-002 and drum mics so I can dial in sounds prior to recording... (or do hardware inserts work with low latency monitoring in place?)

Does anyone have any suggestions for hardware/techniques they use to record drums? I'd like to be able to get reasonable sounds without cheating by using Sound Replacer.... A search on the subject turned up nothing (unless my search keywords suck....)

Thanks in advance for any/all info!

-- Mitch

1. Drums almost always require EQ, usually a broad dip around 320 Hz (to get rid of the mud or boxiness) and a gentle shelving boost around 4 kHz for clarity and attack. YMMV, of course. I wouldn't recommend compressing or limiting on the way in, esp. if you're a newbie.

2. The stock pres in the 002 don't possess enough dynamic range for drums. This has been discussed ad nauseam here. I've used a 20dB pad and still had the gain knob almost all the way down. Your 10dB pad might not be enough.

3. LLM is not necessary. Set your buffer rate to 128, 64 if the drummer complains. You won't be able to run many plugs, but you can use a few eqs and compressors. This and some 20 dB pads should solve your problems. Just remember to deactivate your plugs to see if you're clipping or not.

4. Hardware inserts will work, but your track input must be assigned an audio input, not a buss. There will be a small amount of latency to deal with, going from PT out to a compressor and back in. Again, not totally necessary with your buffer rate at 128.

Good luck!

[LIMiT]

I, I couldn't get the gain low enough to stop clipping on the bass drum or snare mics even with 10 db pad in place and the console gain all the way down.

From a signal chain standpoint, I believe I need at least 6 channels of eq/compression or limiting between the digi-002 and drum mics so I can dial in sounds prior to recording...

Hi Mitch,..

can you give us more info with your setup? Room dimensions? What mics? (other than 2 57's for the snare).

You should not be tracking anything with plugins inserted on tracks (compression/EQ).

You also mention a 'console'? where is this in the chain?..is this the 002 console?

While we wait for your reply.. I'll give you my setup for drums:

002 only:

2 AT4041 - modified spaced O/H ('recorderman'/ Glyn Johns technique)
1 SM57 - snare 4-6" off top
1 D112 - Kick, slightly inside shell pointed at beater (away from snare)

with M-Audio Octane and little outboard

2 AT4041->FMR RNP->FMR RNC-modified spaced O/H ('recorderman'/ Glyn Johns technique)
1 SM57 - snare 4-6" off top
1 D112 - Kick, just outside sound hole
1 Sen421 - Kick, inside shell , very close to beater
1 modded Apex 460 - room mic (somewhere out front of the kit about chest-eye hieght

Cheers,

-LIMiT

[Torchlight]

Hi Mitch! Did you say that you have the 002 console (002 Factory)? What are you using for mic preamps to record your drums? Are you using the analog inputs or the ADAT inputs or both? I guess that whatever preamps you are using don't have either -10 or -20 dB pads, and we all know that SM-57's don't have pads? I too have a 002 but it's the 002 Rack. I picked up an RME Octamic-D to route 8 inputs (via ADAT) to the 002 for a total of 16 not counting S/PDIF. I noticed that the Octamic-D does not have pads on it. I wonder if that will be a problem when I record drums. It also does not have the capability of inserting a compressor or limiter before the A/D converter. But, with all that I have read about the RME unit no one has ever complained about clipping.

Anyway, back to your problem. Can you give me some of the specifics about your signal chain? Do you get clipping even when whatever mic pres you are using are turned all the way down?

Torchight

[mcojoc]

Thanks to naagzh for the suggestions and sound advice! Greatly appreciated.

For me, I figure the extent of eq'ing going in is to just verify I am getting a workable sound (but not fully tweaked) more than anything. Obviously the eq'ing won't be too radical but I feel it should be enough where I feel the starting recorded sound will be a good basis to work from.

I'm not sure of the need for compression during recording again as I am new to this, but based on the variation in level of hits I've seen in these session recordings, and the fact that some mic pre's contain compression, I figured maybe a small amount of compression going in might smooth things out a bit?

As of now, I've had to use radical amounts of limiting on the overheads on some crash hits to keep a reasonable balance in the drum levels across the song.

Please feel free to comment on any of this stuff, especially if I am mistaken, and thanks for your input!!!

PS on that 320 eq dip you mention, do you have a suggested Q setting?

[mcojoc]

Hey Limit,

Room is a paneled 10x20 room with carpeting and heavy wall drapes on one wall across from front of drums (not a live room, but not dead either). It has inconsistent angle dips in the ceiling due to duct work, and guitars and vocals sound warm but not too reverb-y and not phase-y when recorded in there with proper 3-1 mic placement. Here's the drum signal chain. For overheads and bass drum, I was using the AT Digital Reference DR-DRM7 7-Piece Drum Mic Kit. The 2 overheads, DR-HX1 Condenser Microphones, 1 bass drum DR-KX1 Unidirectional Dynamic Kick Microphone and on snare, Shure SM57 with proco max 10db attenuator in-line on the top, 1 DR-STX1 snare mic on the bottom (phase reversed to sm57 signal after the fact during playback due to phase differences). All mics were placed and phase was checked prior to the red light going on...

These signals went directly into the DIGI-002 channels 1 through 4 "console". As of now, the mics are on their way back to the store. I was not impressed. :-(

I believe I may have had the snare mic too low to the rim (1 inch off the rim and pointing too far off axis toward the center). I got no snap and it sounded like the snare was turned off when playing back but was loud and clear in the overheads. The mic was pointing across the drum towards the center, and I believe now it should have been about 5 to 6 inches off the rim, pointing more directly downward toward the drum... Does that sound correct?

The lack of eq made it difficult to gauge where the snare mic should have gone (along with my inexperience) and the inabilty to attenuate any more than 10 db made it next to impossible for me to record anything other than a trigger for sound replacer to use later on....After using replacer, the replaced drums blended in nicely with the overheads though, so the sessions were not completely lost! (Thank goodness.)

Again, any/all info is appreciated.

[Naagzh]

For overheads and bass drum, I was using the AT Digital Reference DR-DRM7 7-Piece Drum Mic Kit. The 2 overheads, DR-HX1 Condenser Microphones, 1 bass drum DR-KX1 Unidirectional Dynamic Kick Microphone and on snare, Shure SM57 with proco max 10db attenuator in-line on the top, 1 DR-STX1 snare mic on the bottom (phase reversed to sm57 signal after the fact during playback due to phase differences). All mics were placed and phase was checked prior to the red light going on...

These signals went directly into the DIGI-002 channels 1 through 4 "console". As of now, the mics are on their way back to the store. I was not impressed. :-(

I believe I may have had the snare mic too low to the rim (1 inch off the rim and pointing too far off axis toward the center). I got no snap and it sounded like the snare was turned off when playing back but was loud and clear in the overheads. The mic was pointing across the drum towards the center, and I believe now it should have been about 5 to 6 inches off the rim, pointing more directly downward toward the drum... Does that sound correct?

How are you getting 5 mics (2 overheads, 1 kick, 2 snare) into the 002? Is one mic going into a line input, or do you have an external mic pre? Going into a line input will give a passable sound at best, but it definitely doesn't give you any control over the gain, and your impedances are mismatched. If you have an external mic pre, then use that for the top snare mic, and save the pad for the bottom snare mic.

1 inch is pretty close to a snare head. This brings out the proximity effect of an SM57, which can work for you if you're after a deep snare "thud" as opposed to a cutting "crack" (think ACDC versus 311). For a brighter sound, try 3 inches off the head, at or near the edge, pointing center. But it still will sound like the snares are almost off, because you're not "listening" anywhere near them. Enter the overheads and bottom mic.

[LIMiT]

As of now, I've had to use radical amounts of limiting on the overheads on some crash hits to keep a reasonable balance in the drum levels across the song.

This could be one of the problems. Do you have more cymbal present than snare in the O/H's? It's been my experience that the snare level in the O/H's is louder than one might think. Meaning, that when balancing your kit with your O/H's only, the snare appears to be the loudest, it seems too loud, but when you add other instruments, things start to make sense. Maybe you need to bring them in from the cymbals more, or move the cybals further away from the rest of the drums..

The 2 overheads, DR-HX1 Condenser Microphones, 1 bass drum DR-KX1 Unidirectional Dynamic Kick Microphone and on snare, Shure SM57 with proco max 10db attenuator in-line on the top, 1 DR-STX1 snare mic on the bottom (phase reversed to sm57 signal after the fact during playback due to phase differences)

These signals went directly into the DIGI-002 channels 1 through 4 "console". As of now, the mics are on their way back to the store. I was not impressed. :-(

I'm also curious about how you added the 5th mic =)

I got no snap and it sounded like the snare was turned off when playing back but was loud and clear in the overheads.

That sounds like a phase issue right there. Did this happen with both mics? (understanding the bottom was phased reversed)

The mic was pointing across the drum towards the center, and I believe now it should have been about 5 to 6 inches off the rim, pointing more directly downward toward the drum... Does that sound correct?

This is purely objective. It's more how your room/snare/mic relates to each other, and how that sounds to your ears.

The lack of eq made it difficult to gauge where the snare mic should have gone (along with my inexperience) and the inabilty to attenuate any more than 10 db made it next to impossible for me to record anything other than a trigger for sound replacer to use later on

We're all here to learn and help each other here in one way or another =)

I've not had any problems with the 002Rs pres recording a kit with my setup. I don't think it's normal to clip with no gain added...perhaps it is the mics.

Cheers,

LIMiT

[mcojoc]

Some questions answered and THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR TIME!!!


1) Interesting discussion about the mic placement and importance of the overheads. My signals are saturated with cymbals. It would seem impossible to get more snare and toms without exaserbating the issue by moving the mics in closer to the cymbals. They were positioned above the cymbals, but pointing down towards the snare and floor tom respectively....I can't move cymbals as that would upset the drummer... Any suggestions? How do I get less cymbal in an overhead!??! DOH!

2) Yes, I am using an adapter to get the 5th channel in... (Bottom snare)... It was useless...

3) Can't be phase. This was while soloing the top snare mic only with the others muted!

4) THANKS. I appreciate the opportunity to pick everyone's brains and for your time!!!

Cheers Limit (PS - I'm assuming you're in the UK?)

[mcojoc]

Thanks Naagzh... The info is helpful...

5th mic was with an impedance adaptor. No preamp (DUH ME) so it was useless.... VERY low level signal...