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  #1  
Old 05-31-2002, 03:04 PM
NATEMYST NATEMYST is offline
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Default Why does Pt master fader sound best @ -12dB?

I'm kinda a newbie to pt(8mo's), I have mixed analog for 10+ yrs and still getting used to the tools-my mixes are finally coming out better than my old analog mixes, but I have one question: Why does the master fader sound better @ -12 dB down? Most of my ch's and plug-ins sound good at around unity so what gives? I know that I can work around this in the mastering process but I usually like to keep gain structure even, any tips or secrets would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!-nate.
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  #2  
Old 05-31-2002, 03:29 PM
Mike Tholen Mike Tholen is offline
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Default Re: Why does Pt master fader sound best @ -12dB?

this huge thread/s may be able to interest you!
http://duc.digidesign.com/cgi-bin/ub...c&f=2&t=005346
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Old 05-31-2002, 06:27 PM
NATEMYST NATEMYST is offline
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Default Re: Why does Pt master fader sound best @ -12dB?

Thanks for the heads up Mike.-Nate.
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Old 05-31-2002, 06:34 PM
maxserg maxserg is offline
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Default Re: Why does Pt master fader sound best @ -12dB?

I've read lot of posts but I was wondering if the fact that Nathemist tells that it sounds better at -12db "could" maybe due to the fact that at the output of the D/A, there is still ANALOG circuitry.

Anybody has tought about the fact that Before or After the DAC's there are analog circuitry?

The distortion figures and curves are not the same in the analog compared to the digital converters.

I mean, you have to record at the highest levels you can do with digital, but when you do that in analog, highest level doesn't means the best sound! In the analog world, most of the time it becomes "harsh" wheen you playback at high levels. This is the nature of analog circuitry. Passed a certain treshold, you have rising distortion.

So to record in a digital interface, or play back trough a digital interface, you will always go trough an analog circuitry.

I hope I'm clear about it.

For me this is logic.

I'm maybe wrong about this, I don't care!

Just the sound that counts!
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Old 05-31-2002, 07:42 PM
Lee Blaske Lee Blaske is offline
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Default Re: Why does Pt master fader sound best @ -12dB?

Also, you need to consider the equipment that's being used for monitoring. What's being used, and how is it patched in? Tape returns on lots of vintage consoles don't have enough headroom to accept the output of a DAT recorder without distortion unless some padding is done.

Have you experimented with setting the output levels on your interface to a lowel value?

Lee Blaske
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Old 06-03-2002, 01:09 PM
PTUser NYC PTUser NYC is offline
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Default Re: Why does Pt master fader sound best @ -12dB?

Nate,

If you read the long thread, you will find that some of us like to record into our converters at 0dbVU, even if that means our peaks are at -14dbFS (FS=Full Scale) on the converters.

We find that the analog front end likes running at around 0dbVU, and that the extra headroom doesn't hurt in PT either.

I set up my Apogee AD8000 so that -14dbFS = 0dbVU. Then I just track with peaks around 0dbVU, which is -14dbFS on the converters.

When you are making 24 bit recordings that will eventually be dithered down to 16 for a CD, recording at -14 is no big deal. Each bit counts for 6db, so if you peak around -12dbFS, you are making a recording with a resolution equivalent to a Full Scale 22 bit recording. This is still far more precise than the 16 bit master you are gonna end up with, so it sounds fine.

It certainly sounds better in my opinion than a 24 bit recording of a mic preamp working at +14dbVU.

Of course, this will likely result in a mix that doesn't make use of the all the resolution available in the converter. At 24 bits, this is no problem, but at 16 bits it can sound bad, not to mention the issues of competitive volume.

What I do is to mix until I like the sound, and then increase the volume of the whole mix just before I go to 16 bits. I generally use a compressor across the mix bus when I mix. I liek the Rennaisance Compressor for this application, and I often follow it with the L1+ Ultramaximizer with IDR Dither.

I use the Rennaisance Comp and L1+ artistically, without regard to level until I like the sound. often, I am not using the L1+ at all at this point, and only getting 2 or 3 db of gain reduction maximum from the R-Comp.

Then, once I like the sound, I increase the output gain of the R-Comp until I am getting 0dbFS (or -0.1dbFS). At this point, I go to the L1+ and set the dither to 16 bits, and play with the type and shaping until it sounds best.

This way, I get the best sound out of my analog gear at the front end, preserve 0dbVU throughout the mix - which allows more headroom AND better interfacing of analog gear (such as compressors and EQs) on inserts, and still get a nice strong signal before dithering down to 16 bits, and finally get the most elevel on the CD from the mix sounding the way I want it to sound.

Others dissagree with this approach, but try it, you may find that part of the 'edgy sound of Pro Tools' is really the build-up of distortion from analog mic preamps working way out their best range.

Good Luck!

Kyle
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  #7  
Old 06-04-2002, 12:47 AM
NATEMYST NATEMYST is offline
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Default Re: Why does Pt master fader sound best @ -12dB?

Nice points all, but I've been experimenting with different levels like -2.5,-4.0, -6.0, and -12dB and compenstating by adjusting the monitors and I'm a little dissapointing by the resultant summing errors(or distortion? which is it really?) at levels higher than -12dB on the pt 2buss. I heard that Jules is using the d2b(dangerous 2bus) so must not be the only engineer here that is frustrated with pt mix buss. I am a newbie to pt but not to sound and engineering and I feel that I am hearing the difference. Anyone with similar expierences Please feel free to Comment.

Thanks,

Nate.
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