Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Learn & Support


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > Pro Tools Post Production > Post - Surround - Video

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #31  
Old 06-06-2019, 05:33 PM
tom_lowe tom_lowe is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,035
Default Re: 5.1 file channel order

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulo m View Post
Ah, glad you mentioned this, because here´s precisely where things go wrong, again, based on my experience.

QT is in fact expecting an SMPTE file order. The order that is visible on your QT screenshot is actually not showing what QT detects, but the way "it expects it to be". But it´s still Film order as exported from PT. The first time we did it for Netflix, it got rejected because channels were in wrong order, guess which...

So, you need to re-arrange the order manually on that same menu and then export as a new movie.

Steps:

1-Export to QT from PT. Your channel order is going to be Film.

2-Open in QT 7 and go to Movie Properties.

3-Re arrange the SMPTE order shown to Film which is what in fact it is.

4-Export as a new movie(.mov file). Make sure you export settings are set to Movie to Quicktime Movie. Before exporting, you will also need to go into Options/Sound Settings and choose the apropriate SMPTE channel order, bit rate and FS.

Then you´ll get the right SMPTE order on the new re-mapped .mov file. You can then add your Lt Rt which is basically a stereo mix with it´s channel names renamed from LR to Lt Rt, again done on QT. Then you save it as a self contained movie and voilá. Film order exported from PT, re-mapped into QT and exported as SMPTE.


So, I still think that the AVID doc is accurate and up to date. If it´s not, it would be interesting if someone from AVID could explain why is not and correct it as should.
I’d eliminate Bounce to QT from your workflow. QT has long been deprecated and replaced with AVFoundation.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 06-07-2019, 05:01 AM
its2loud its2loud is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Los Angles
Posts: 388
Default Re: 5.1 file channel order

The request has been made to update the Avid doc and it is being moved up the food chain.

As far as Bounce to Quicktime goes, I cannot confirm nor deny which order the file is in for an audio only .mov file from PT. Although, I suspect that since .mov is simply the container and the codec of the audio is still bwav inside the container, the order is still SMPTE. I have exported 5.1 Video Quicktimes from Pro Tools and I believe the order was SMPTE.
Either way, this is not how I make my deliveries for Netflix. I export mono wavs from Pro Tools and then open them in QuickTime Pro 7 assigning each audio track to the correct channel and saving as a .mov.

This horse is really dead but somehow it wants to keep coming back to life.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 06-07-2019, 06:40 AM
paulo m's Avatar
paulo m paulo m is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 266
Default Re: 5.1 file channel order

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Gates View Post
Yup,
It's because Pro Tools buses internally to the QuickTime engine that does the actual rendering of the file in this case. And because Pro Tools internal bussing is in film order it gets rendered as a film order QuickTime. It's neither Pro Tools' fault neither QuickTime's, it's just an annoying compatibility/crossover issue. 5.1 multichannel files created by the Pro Tools file API (recordings/bounces/exports) are in SMPTE order, absolutely definitely, have investigated the actual byte structure of the files themselves several times over the last few years to verify this.

Pete
That´s why I do the re-mapping in QT, because I export as QT from PT, when delivering for Netflix.

I thing is simpler that exporting as mono files from PT, as I need to open them in QT anyway and add the stereo mix.

Sometimes when using mono files, I do it in FFworks, I prefer the GUI to QT7
__________________
Regards,

Paulo M
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 06-07-2019, 06:48 AM
paulo m's Avatar
paulo m paulo m is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 266
Default Re: 5.1 file channel order

Quote:
Originally Posted by its2loud View Post
The request has been made to update the Avid doc and it is being moved up the food chain.

As far as Bounce to Quicktime goes, I cannot confirm nor deny which order the file is in for an audio only .mov file from PT. Although, I suspect that since .mov is simply the container and the codec of the audio is still bwav inside the container, the order is still SMPTE. I have exported 5.1 Video Quicktimes from Pro Tools and I believe the order was SMPTE.
Either way, this is not how I make my deliveries for Netflix. I export mono wavs from Pro Tools and then open them in QuickTime Pro 7 assigning each audio track to the correct channel and saving as a .mov.

This horse is really dead but somehow it wants to keep coming back to life.
I think it´s alive and kicking until AVID writes their documentation (and to a certain extent their code) in a clear mode. Channel order should be (and is in other DAW´s) a clear path, either when exporting as interleaved BWF, QT or whatever.

If you choose a SMPTE out path in Settings/I/O/Output tab, you should get a corresponding SMPTE internal bus. It all starts here. What´s the point of having your session in Film mode if your exports as interleaved go out in SMPTE and QT in Film?. It doesn´t make sense IMHO.
__________________
Regards,

Paulo M
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 06-07-2019, 06:56 AM
paulo m's Avatar
paulo m paulo m is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 266
Default Re: 5.1 file channel order

Quote:
Originally Posted by BScout View Post
Lets's start here. The file I'm showing is just an interleaved audio consolidated and exported from Pro Tools 2019.5. It is not being"export to QT."
I'm just showing a standard 5.1 interleaved BWF as it is outputted from Pro Tools as read by QT7 Pro or QTX or Waveagent. They all agree. You can put channel blips, de-interleave the tracks and pull them back as monos into Pro Tools and they will show it is SMPTE by channel order.

As for the rest, you've got to realize a lot of us here on the forum do exports/deliveries to Netflix. And it all goes without a hitch.

Something in your workflow is the flaw. The files that come out of Pro Tools ARE SMPTE format without a doubt.
Yes, I´m aware that a lot of other people do deliveries to Netflix, don´t worry

But the workflow may be different and that may lead to different user experiences, that´s all.
__________________
Regards,

Paulo M
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 06-07-2019, 11:26 AM
its2loud its2loud is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Los Angles
Posts: 388
Default Re: 5.1 file channel order

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulo m View Post
That´s why I do the re-mapping in QT, because I export as QT from PT, when delivering for Netflix.

QT7
Paulo, I don’t think it’s changing the physical channel order when you re-map in Quicktime. You’re only changing the metadata header info for the .mov file. The order is the order. So, if you’re re-mapping the metadata channel order of a file that’s already in a SMPTE order, all you are doing is changing the labeling. Therefore the header info will wrong compared to a the channel order if you think the file is FILM order but is actually SMPTE order. This is what happened to me. However, I can’t see your workflow so this might all be bunk.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 06-11-2019, 02:42 AM
Farhoof's Avatar
Farhoof Farhoof is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 168
Default Re: 5.1 file channel order

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulo m View Post
I think it´s alive and kicking until AVID writes their documentation (and to a certain extent their code) in a clear mode. Channel order should be (and is in other DAW´s) a clear path, either when exporting as interleaved BWF, QT or whatever.

If you choose a SMPTE out path in Settings/I/O/Output tab, you should get a corresponding SMPTE internal bus. It all starts here. What´s the point of having your session in Film mode if your exports as interleaved go out in SMPTE and QT in Film?. It doesn´t make sense IMHO.
I disagree here, the output tab is studio hardware related and should be independent of any export format. For instance, on some suites here I am using a L/R/LFE/C/Ls/Rs channel order because it's using some HDMI I/O. Since the HDMI spec is SMPTE but with C and LFE switched I also have to switch them in my output tab. I do not want to have my exports switched too. Same goes for the Protools bussing and GUI, I don't want every editing suite to have different meter reading. I am very fine using film mode on every single Protools rig I am working on. I can always select the actual hardware output (and it's output path order) on my output meter at the top of the edit window.

Also keep in mind, the path order preference you set in the Output tab, is only the preferred default order of any new output path you create. Nothing more than that.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 06-11-2019, 07:42 AM
paulo m's Avatar
paulo m paulo m is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 266
Default Re: 5.1 file channel order

OK, so for the sake of clarity, I did some tests and found why I was right and wrong at the same time.

I generated a 5.1 track in Film Mode with pink noise, having the center channel higher in level than the other channels and the Lfe even lower, just for visibility purposes. I exported and also bounced the same track to both Wav and QT (.MOV). Then I imported the files into Izotope RX to check. RX doesn´t order files, you just choose the layout(film or SMPTE) for display purposes.

To those that said that PT always exports SMPTE despite the AVID documentation stating otherwise, you´re right. All bounces and file exports to Wav were SMPTE. The bounce to QT was also SMPTE.

But, if you export (Com/Shift/K) to QT, the resulting file is Film mode.

And this is my workflow. I always export(not bounce) to QT, then re-arranje the tracks in QT and export as new movie with the right order.

QT and as I mentioned before, doesn´t recognize the right order, just thinks is SMPTE, even when it´s not.

Here´s some screenshots:

1-Importing of the file exported to QT into RX. Is Film mode:



2-Re-mapping of audio channels of the file in QT to export as new movie:



3-Resulting re-mapped file imported into RX and now correctly in SMPTE:



So, because I always use this method, I was right in saying that PT exports in Film Mode, but only when exporting to QT. This is my workflow. Using other methods, I agree and was wrong, is always SMPTE.

I hope this clarifies the issue. Only hope that AVID corrects the info and mentions that when exporting to QT, there´s a flaw (or not).
__________________
Regards,

Paulo M

Last edited by paulo m; 06-12-2019 at 06:58 AM. Reason: Adding screenshot links
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 06-20-2019, 03:52 PM
AndrewAction's Avatar
AndrewAction AndrewAction is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Auckland
Posts: 436
Default Re: 5.1 file channel order

After a couple of members requested Avid to look into issues raised about the KB article one of the techs pointed out "That KB article is not wrong because it's not really about EXPORTING - it talks mostly about importing, display order (on the timeline), meter order and audible channel output order. When exporting there are various factors that dictate the channel order of the resultant file - for example, exporting as AIFF will result in a different channel order to exporting as WAV."

Also the last Q/A which mentioned exporting in the Working with SMPTE-ordered multichannel files in Pro Tools article has been updated June 20 2019.

Andrew
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 06-20-2019, 05:08 PM
its2loud its2loud is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Los Angles
Posts: 388
Default Re: 5.1 file channel order

Great! Glad to know it’s been updated.

Maybe it would be a good idea for Avid to put out a tech document specifying channel order when exporting various types of file formats. This would be helpful to many.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pro Tools 5.1 export channel order Charles Deenen Post - Surround - Video 27 06-08-2016 06:58 AM
CAF channel-order still wrong in 9.0.5 Arno Peeters Post - Surround - Video 3 07-26-2015 07:55 AM
Locked Channel order in Bus bcslaam Pro Tools 11 3 08-29-2013 12:11 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:37 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com