Recording Levels

[jawjam]

In general, is it safe to assume that I should track everything into PT as hot as possible without digital distortion. If not, could somebody give me a laymen's explanation.

I know this has been covered on the DUC several times. My searches on this subject are just more confusing.

Thanks for your help to this unschooled protoolian.

[Cyamarin]

Yes, this is true. You have one digital 16 bit (or sometimes 24 bit) word, which you use to describe the level of your signal at any given moment. If you're recording in 16 bit and your record level never goes above 50% of maximum, then basically you've got an eight bit recording on your hands--you're only using have of your available bit depth.

You want to do the same thing with tape, but that's because of the noise floor.

[JFreak]

Yes, this is true. You have one digital 16 bit (or sometimes 24 bit) word, which you use to describe the level of your signal at any given moment. If you're recording in 16 bit and your record level never goes above 50% of maximum, then basically you've got an eight bit recording on your hands--you're only using have of your available bit depth.

this is true also, but the thing is that it all comes down to available dynamic range - if you would be able to use all 24 bits throughout your recording, you would have 144dB of dynamics, and if you use 16 bits you have 96dB - and with 8 bits the situation is anemic. so... if you think that 96dB is ok and record 24 bits, you would think that you have 8 bits of headroom --> you don't need to peak your levels in fear of clipping, you can leave up to 33% headroom and still achieve the desired 96dB of dynamics.

get it? with 24 bits it's not so important anymore to target the zero-level. unless you want to record such a material that requires dynamic range of 144dB

[Infa]

Jawjam,,,, as both well educated replys by the above posters are 100% correct, and great advise, I feel you are also wanting just a rough idea of how other people successfully record. So I will tell you how I do , what you asked.

Dispite all the tech talk, and or reasoning, I record all my tracks as HOTTTTT as possible with out hittin' the reds/and/or obviously clipping... I have done it that way for years, and had nothing but excellent results.

Also from experience, I have noticed that when I hadn't done it that way (for whatever reason), or if another client brings over sessions that I didn't record, and they are not recorded HOTTT,,,, I kind of notice I don't like it as much. It don't allow me to get that "next level" big sound outta the mix that I like...

But PLEASE,,,,,everyone understand,, that is my opinion, and how I record..

I just felt maybe Jawjam wanted some more "how do YOU record and whys" than tech talk.....

Hope this helps Jawjam ----

[JFreak]

infa,
please do yourself a favor and try this kind of a test: reecord something via two separate tracks (same mic spitted into two pre's) where one is set HOTT and another peaking at 25%-33% - then, normalize both tracks so they would be perceived approzimately as loud. then a/b them and judge yourself - if you hear a difference, continue recording HOTT, if you don't hear it, lower your levels a bit.

now i'm just paranoid about digital clipping which makes things much worse than recording that has been done with too low levels. when it's ruined, it's ruined, and that's why i prefer having a good headroom. nevertheless, i record as HOTT as possible while having this headroom, i'm just saying that with 24 bits you don't have to be paranoid about getting HOTT signals with 16 bits however the hottest signals were a must.

[Infa]

Thanks Jfreak,,, I will try your test yet one more time per your request.. See I did do this test a while ago, and I came up with "mixed" feelings about it. And then in the end I really felt the hotter recorded one had more something to it. But I am going to try this again,, just cause you said....

See I am really paranoid about digital clipping as well, but I just really check my levels, and when I say hott, I mainly just mean,, all the way to the top of the meter, BUT with out EVER going into the reds. AND that actually IS giving you some headroom. Digi said there is about 3db headroom AFTER the "Red"... So techniquelly you can hit the reds all day with out any kind of clipping at all, BUT you have to go 3.1db PAST the reds to get a clip.....

Plus from my original test, I noticed/felt (IMO) that having the volume there (naturally from the begining, from your Pre) gave the sound a better feel, rather than "Normalizing"/"Gaining" the lower sound to achieve the same volume. The one with the natural loudness from the begining just had more BALLZ ... And I think the reason is because you getting the volume from a real Pre, with tubes ya know, instead of just "turning up" the volume of a lower signal digitally.......

Get back to me to tell me if any of this makes any kind of sense to you,,(or if I'm just crazy)

And I am going to test it again,,, and get back to ya on this one.........

[JFreak]

i don't normally use normalizing but for the test purpose it is essential, because human brain has been programmed to feel that louder is better - so to compare two takes the output volume level must be the same.

the strange thing about clipping and high-resolution audio is that not all clips get noticed. take transients for example, those beasts sometimes clip unnoticed and color the recorded signal. it's a different story if it's a desired effect, but usually it isn't. you mustn't discount the "additional" 3dB headroom, because transients easily eat 6-12dB (!) so better safe than sorry - in my opinion - so i now tend to keep my levels "reasonable hot" but not try to reach the limit.

when i recorded 16bit sessions, i naturally drove the signal to the limit and used dynamic control before a/d conversion, but now i don't need to anymore.

just do the test and judge based on your comparisons. maybe you could get an assistant to switch signals so you don't know which is playing? make notes and afterwards ask the assistant which comments belong to which signal

but you're right, if done right - zero clipping - HOT levels sound ballsy, aggressive, in-your-face... but usually you might compress the dynamics to the same level you would achieve with lesser compression were you recording slightly lower levels at the first place. the final track will sound just the same were you recording it HOT or at slightly lower levels, and the end product is what counts.

you probably use almost same levels as i do, but it's good to test this theory so you can draw your attention from levels to something more important in 24 bit session, as long as nothing clips and the average level is above 50%, you're getting good results.

[PhiDelta308]

I used to record as hot as possible, back when I was using 16 bit ADATs. When I moved to 24 Bit protools, I was always having problems when mixing if I recorded as hot as possible. I always ran out of head room. There was a really good thread about this a while back, and basically, the gist of it it was that you shouldn't be recording as hot as possible in 24 bit. I have found I get the best results when I have my peaks falling around -6dBFS. That leaves plenty of headroom for mixing. At the end of the mixing stage I try to leave at least 3db for mastering. If you record as hot as possible, you won't have any head room for mixing or mastering. Note, this is for 24 bit sessions, where you have a much larger dynamic range. 16 bit is a different animal entirely.

-Chris

[jawjam]

I think I've got it now. When in 24 bit, recording HOT is generally good but I don't have to be anal about it like I was with my VS880 because of the dynamic range.

I appreciate everyone's comments.

[O.G. Killa]

Digi said there is about 3db headroom AFTER the "Red"... So techniquelly you can hit the reds all day with out any kind of clipping at all, BUT you have to go 3.1db PAST the reds to get a clip.....

I think you might have misunderstood the digi rep when he told you this. WHEN MIXING or in PLAYBACK, there is about 3~6dB of headroom on the fader after the clip indicator lights up. When tracking, as soon as the red light comes on you're clipping. It might be so quick you don't hear it but it's in there and you can see it. NEVER RECORD WITH THE CLIP INDICATOR LIGHTING UP AT ALL!!!!

As for the question of "how hot should I record..." The average level should sit about halfway up the meter in PT with transients Coming close to the top but never clipping.

Halfway up the meter is around -18dBfs to -14dBfs, which is perfect for recording.

One problem you'll have when mixing if you Record everything as hot as possible is that when you start to add effects, EQ, Compression to the tracks they will start clipping IN THE PLUGINS! This starts to add small amounts of distortion and while your tracks may sound hotter than everyone elses, they will also sound a little more midrangey and have far less definition and subtle nuances than professionally mixed CDs.

Professional recordings, from beginning to end, try to maintain an average level somewhere between -14dB to -18dB full scale. Recording lower than that usually has too high a noise floor, recording louder than that and you'll start to have distortion and clipping. It's only when you reach the mastering stage that you start to bump up the levels significantly.

In they end they're your songs and your mixes. So you can do whatever you what...if you feel it sounds better to record as hot as possible then go for it...if not then don't.