11R with Ventura and Ilok Question

[Shatzer]

Getting an 11R from a friend. Has the latest version installed (to the best of my knowledge) V2.0.1 Build 0.1.5.7.

Has anyone tried using the editor on an Intel Mac with Ventura?
Will the drivers/editor work on this OS? No big deal as I’ll be using it primarily as a scratch track box with the UA Ox Stomp and can edit everything from the unit itself. Was just curious.

Also, do you need an ilok license to run the editor? I have an Eleven license already but didn’t know if it needed a different license that needed to be transferred from his ilok.

Thanks

[Darryl Ramm]

The driver will work on Ventura on an Intel Mac, will not work on an Apple Silicon mac. Since this is an old kext driver you have to enable permissions for that. https://support.apple.com/guide/depl...pa5fb8376f/web

No opinion on the Eleven Rack Editor, I've not had that running on macOS for a while. As you say that's not the end of the world.

The is no iLok license needed to run the Editor or the Eleven Rack, but the Editor does depends on iLok software components to run. The Editor is a complex assemblage of what are now the "Eleven Mk II" (amp and cap sim) and "Eleven Effects" plugin UI components that depends on iLok software to be present, but again no license. The Eleven Mk. II and Eleven Effects plugins are typically licensed today as part of the Avid Complete Plugin Bundle subscription, having a license for any of those makes no difference at all to working with an Eleven Rack or the Editor (if you can get it to run)... but if you have those licenses you are then able to use the same amp, cab sims and effects as plugins within Pro Tools.

Note the v2.0 firmware Eleven Racks implement the Eleven Mk II amp/cab emulators. You want an Eleven Mk II plugin license to be compatible, not an older Eleven license.

The complex structure of the Editor might not not have helped it be supported on later macOS versions. But it's pretty clear the Eleven Rack has been abanonware for a long time, the Editor had only one software release and was abandoned. The team that did all this great work work was sadly laid off/pushed out/left/scattered to the winds long ago.

[Shatzer]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

The driver will work on Ventura on an Intel Mac, will not work on an Apple Silicon mac. Since this is an old kext driver you have to enable permissions for that. https://support.apple.com/guide/depl...pa5fb8376f/web

No opinion on the Eleven Rack Editor, I've not had that running on macOS for a while. As you say that's not the end of the world.

The is no iLok license needed to run the Editor or the Eleven Rack, but the Editor does depends on iLok software components to run. The Editor is a complex assemblage of what are now the "Eleven Mk II" (amp and cap sim) and "Eleven Effects" plugin UI components that depends on iLok software to be present, but again no license. The Eleven Mk. II and Eleven Effects plugins are typically licensed today as part of the Avid Complete Plugin Bundle subscription, having a license for any of those makes no difference at all to working with an Eleven Rack or the Editor (if you can get it to run)... but if you have those licenses you are then able to use the same amp, cab sims and effects as plugins within Pro Tools.

Note the v2.0 firmware Eleven Racks implement the Eleven Mk II amp/cab emulators. You want an Eleven Mk II plugin license to be compatible, not an older Eleven license.

The complex structure of the Editor might not not have helped it be supported on later macOS versions. But it's pretty clear the Eleven Rack has been abanonware for a long time, the Editor had only one software release and was abandoned. The team that did all this great work work was sadly laid off/pushed out/left/scattered to the winds long ago.

Thanks for the info! I do have the MKII license as well as ilok already installed. I’m picking it up tomorrow so will report back if I can get everything running on Ventura if anyone else is curious.

[Shatzer]

Just to update the thread for anyone curious I did get the drivers and editor working on Ventura with an Intel Mac.

Had to install the editor first, then the driver. If you install the driver first you get an error when opening the editor that the midi engine won’t initialize.

Everything is working fine except that the editor does turn white every time you click something but clicking around (usually on the amp) brings it back. The tuner doesn’t work on screen. A minor annoyance using it but if you like the editor you can get use to the quirks.

Too bad they won’t release one more update on the graphics issue before its final EOL. This is actually a great box even though the amp sims are a bit dated. Would love to have someone hack this thing with an update.

The sound is definitely improved using the UA Ox Stomp with the 11R. Was having fun playing around with this thing.

[M0JXD]

I'm interested in hacking the 11R, and was looking in to it for a while. My ambitions are currently shelved until later this year when support officially ends for the 11R, just to see if Avid will do anything. (Doubt it)

The reason I've held off is because of copyright issues. Given the the EXP Pack was a paid upgrade, sharing a way to load an update that would include the EXP stuff too could land a hacker in serious legal trouble (despite the fact the EXP is no longer available anywhere). Of course there a ways to release an update as a patch akin to how the likes of Mario 64 decompilation project handles it (requiring an official binary that is legally dumped by the user for assets) but that extra work is a lot for a unit that is nowhere near as popular as those video games, and this is before we even dig in to the hacking.

I've actually asked on Avid link if they are interested in releasing any source code but I doubt that will go anywhere. At the very least it would be nice of them to document the current USB protocol to allow hobbyists to take over with driver maintenance, because the unit isn't class compliant. Anyone who has Avid link can go and like the post (and others on the 11R) which might encourage them (see my other post). Given that the 11R stuff is now used in Headrush (it's unclear whether they're licensed or just "legally reverse engineered", see here: https://www.reddit.com/r/HeadRush/co...and_how_is_it/) I doubt that will happen as that code/algorithms going public would be bad for them.

I reckon there's plenty that could be added to the 11R, IIRC it has a 128MiB NAND Flash that I'm presuming holds both firmware and presets.
My reasoning for thinking it does both is because a preset .tfx file is ~2KB, the 11R holds 208 presets which totals about 0.4MiB, which is a small proportion of the available space.

For reference, the Axe FX II has a 256MB memory which is filled to the brim according to Cliff at Fractal, and it does way more than double than what the 11R does. Of course the amount of memory required for the same functionality isn't necessarily linear because the 11R uses TMS320 DSPs while the Axe uses SHARCs. Still, it helps as an estimate. This all to say, I reckon the 11R has plenty of room to add more functionality!

If you look on the ElevenHack source, you'll notice how involved these things can be: https://gitlab.com/schmidg/elevenhac...ref_type=heads
That's "hundreds of hours" just for the USB Midi protocol, so if I was to start hacking now with all my spare time it'd probably take at least until sometime next year to have an update, provided things go smoothly, and I'd have to learn more about DSP to provide anything good. Check the credits (built in to the menu) to see how many people go in to creating such a unit. Remember that they also had costly reference units for measuring against to provide accurate models.

Other than that though it would be a fun thing to hack - there is already a JTAG interface on the board that the likes of a ARM ULINK2 could hook to for hacking the LPC2378 (ARM7 based) and another non-JTAG header that I've not worked out the purpose of yet (I think it's for debugging the DSPs). One hopes that Code Read Protection is turned off on the LPC2378, given that a JTAG header is pre-soldered I doubt that it's on as all three levels of CRP disable JTAG, which would be a waste of money to fit if so! TI have some TMS320C6000 ASM tools (https://www.ti.com/lit/ug/sprui03e/s...=1707557620164) that includes a disassembler for checking optimisation. That would prove useful for hacking/reverse engineering as well.

If Avid gave the go-ahead by sharing source code/documentation/schematics, or at least said that they wouldn't cause legal trouble for hackers/reverse engineers, I would love to dig in to it more.

[Shatzer]

Originally Posted by M0JXD

I'm interested in hacking the 11R, and was looking in to it for a while. My ambitions are currently shelved until later this year when support officially ends for the 11R, just to see if Avid will do anything. (Doubt it)

The reason I've held off is because of copyright issues. Given the the EXP Pack was a paid upgrade, sharing a way to load an update that would include the EXP stuff too could land a hacker in serious legal trouble (despite the fact the EXP is no longer available anywhere). Of course there a ways to release an update as a patch akin to how the likes of Mario 64 decompilation project handles it (requiring an official binary that is legally dumped by the user for assets) but that extra work is a lot for a unit that is nowhere near as popular as those video games, and this is before we even dig in to the hacking.

I've actually asked on Avid link if they are interested in releasing any source code but I doubt that will go anywhere. At the very least it would be nice of them to document the current USB protocol to allow hobbyists to take over with driver maintenance, because the unit isn't class compliant. Anyone who has Avid link can go and like the post (and others on the 11R) which might encourage them (see my other post). Given that the 11R stuff is now used in Headrush (it's unclear whether they're licensed or just "legally reverse engineered", see here: https://www.reddit.com/r/HeadRush/co...and_how_is_it/) I doubt that will happen as that code/algorithms going public would be bad for them.

I reckon there's plenty that could be added to the 11R, IIRC it has a 128MiB NAND Flash that I'm presuming holds both firmware and presets.
My reasoning for thinking it does both is because a preset .tfx file is ~2KB, the 11R holds 208 presets which totals about 0.4MiB, which is a small proportion of the available space.

For reference, the Axe FX II has a 256MB memory which is filled to the brim according to Cliff at Fractal, and it does way more than double than what the 11R does. Of course the amount of memory required for the same functionality isn't necessarily linear because the 11R uses TMS320 DSPs while the Axe uses SHARCs. Still, it helps as an estimate. This all to say, I reckon the 11R has plenty of room to add more functionality!

If you look on the ElevenHack source, you'll notice how involved these things can be: https://gitlab.com/schmidg/elevenhac...ref_type=heads
That's "hundreds of hours" just for the USB Midi protocol, so if I was to start hacking now with all my spare time it'd probably take at least until sometime next year to have an update, provided things go smoothly, and I'd have to learn more about DSP to provide anything good. Check the credits (built in to the menu) to see how many people go in to creating such a unit. Remember that they also had costly reference units for measuring against to provide accurate models.

Other than that though it would be a fun thing to hack - there is already a JTAG interface on the board that the likes of a ARM ULINK2 could hook to for hacking the LPC2378 (ARM7 based) and another non-JTAG header that I've not worked out the purpose of yet (I think it's for debugging the DSPs). One hopes that Code Read Protection is turned off on the LPC2378, given that a JTAG header is pre-soldered I doubt that it's on as all three levels of CRP disable JTAG, which would be a waste of money to fit if so! TI have some TMS320C6000 ASM tools (https://www.ti.com/lit/ug/sprui03e/s...=1707557620164) that includes a disassembler for checking optimisation. That would prove useful for hacking/reverse engineering as well.

If Avid gave the go-ahead by sharing source code/documentation/schematics, or at least said that they wouldn't cause legal trouble for hackers/reverse engineers, I would love to dig in to it more.

That would be awesome. What would be some of the things that could be done with hacking it?
For me personally the weak link are the cabs. Would be cool to be able to upload your own IRs.
Also the editor needs to be updated.
Not sure if it’s even possible to update this to work on apple silicon.

[M0JXD]

Originally Posted by Shatzer

That would be awesome. What would be some of the things that could be done with hacking it?
For me personally the weak link are the cabs. Would be cool to be able to upload your own IRs.
Also the editor needs to be updated.
Not sure if it’s even possible to update this to work on apple silicon.

In theory, anything that would be added in an expansion pack, so new amps, cabs and effects as we got last time are on the table.

Reading the 11R Datasheet and Brochure (linked at bottom) it says that the cab and mic use "Convolution Processing". Convolution is the mathematical process that's used with IR, so it seems that the 11R architecture does indeed use IRs, but the ones that are in it are just not that great. Given that it may well be possible to have a method for an end user to load them in and out.

Of course it depends on what sample amount/rate the 11R uses as to what could be loaded (too low of either/both may well be the reason those IRs are meh), so that could continue to be a limitation, but I'm sure things could be reworked to allow for better quality ones, even if it's at the expense of not being able to use as many effects.

Regarding the driver - I'm not sure if the unit could be updated to be class compliant, but a new driver could very likely be made for ARM macs (and Linux too).

Apparently Avid are working on a Apple Silicon driver already according to the top reply on this page: https://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=422706&page=2

I'll believe it when I see it!

Again though it can't be overstated the magnitude of work it would take to hack/update the Eleven Rack. Having schematics, code and documentation would speed up the process, but even then adding new things would take a part time hobbyist a whole lot more development time than it would take full time engineers, and we know how long it took them!

Links:
https://cdn-www.avid.com/-/media/avi..._ds_a4_sec.pdf

https://cdn-www.avid.com/-/media/avi...ochure2014.pdf

[Shatzer]

Originally Posted by M0JXD

In theory, anything that would be added in an expansion pack, so new amps, cabs and effects as we got last time are on the table.

Reading the 11R Datasheet and Brochure (linked at bottom) it says that the cab and mic use "Convolution Processing". Convolution is the mathematical process that's used with IR, so it seems that the 11R architecture does indeed use IRs, but the ones that are in it are just not that great. Given that it may well be possible to have a method for an end user to load them in and out.

Of course it depends on what sample amount/rate the 11R uses as to what could be loaded (too low of either/both may well be the reason those IRs are meh), so that could continue to be a limitation, but I'm sure things could be reworked to allow for better quality ones, even if it's at the expense of not being able to use as many effects.

Regarding the driver - I'm not sure if the unit could be updated to be class compliant, but a new driver could very likely be made for ARM macs (and Linux too).

Apparently Avid are working on a Apple Silicon driver already according to the top reply on this page: https://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=422706&page=2

I'll believe it when I see it!

Again though it can't be overstated the magnitude of work it would take to hack/update the Eleven Rack. Having schematics, code and documentation would speed up the process, but even then adding new things would take a part time hobbyist a whole lot more development time than it would take full time engineers, and we know how long it took them!

Links:
https://cdn-www.avid.com/-/media/avi..._ds_a4_sec.pdf

https://cdn-www.avid.com/-/media/avi...ochure2014.pdf

Once it’s completely discontinued, it may be possible to contact Chris Townsend (original creator of 11R) who works at UA now to see if he would give any available info. He may not be able to say anything but wouldn’t hurt.

[M0JXD]

Originally Posted by Shatzer

Once it’s completely discontinued, it may be possible to contact Chris Townsend (original creator of 11R) who works at UA now to see if he would give any available info. He may not be able to say anything but wouldn’t hurt.

It would be amazing if anyone on the original 11R team could help, although they probably have NDAs that would mean they couldn't help even if they wanted to.

The 11R has a built in credits so that would help in terms of contacting the original team. Those lot are a clever bunch and looking now a lot of them are working fantastic jobs (a fair few at UA and Apple it turns out!) which makes it an extra shame that the 11R never got the treatment it deserved from Avid.

[Darryl Ramm]

Lots of speculation and maybe starry-eyed hope here, lets see if you even get any response from Avid.

The driver and certainly the Editor may be balls of string to sort out. The driver seems derived from/based on Mbox driver code, certainly looks like it from the outside. The Editor is dependent on/derived from Avid plugins, including UX code and uses third party Pace libraries. I would have very low expectation this stuff would ever get released given that Avid has never done similar here, and that it would need engineering and legal review for what is going out and likely engineering help to document build environments/tooling etc. And all the engineering folks involved have long left Avid. And I have no idea how easy it is to back out the Pace code in the Editor, and I kinda doubt Pace would license that stuff to hobbiests. Between the Eleven Rack firmware update and Editor you have a bunch of IP for currently shipping Avid plugins which might bork a legal/business review. After the most recent layoffs Avid seems even more constrained with staff resources, and with STG ownership and a new CEO needing to come in I suspect folks internally are not going to to want to be advocating for resources to work on making this happen.

Yes a lovely box, great in it's time and still nice. Pity Avid did not do more with the product, at a high level I suspect they did not know how to sell/market it and Avid had so many business and other issues going on. I reverse engineered the Eleven Rack MIDI protocol ages ago, as did others. I sure hope nobody thought the simple CRC was for encryption purposes. :-O But personally find just using the physical box to be easier than the Editor. And if folks want a Mk II compatible Eleven Rack they can just buy one used, for about $200-$300. I have three of them, two in the rack and a spare in a box... used independent of the drivers and Editor.