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  #1  
Old 09-04-2008, 07:31 PM
JMonroe24 JMonroe24 is offline
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Default Voice to the front, Instruments to the back

I have been working with Pro Tools a little bit, but one thing I can't put my finger on is how to push lyrics to the front over a beat. I know this goes along with mixing and mastering, but I have dropped out elements of the beat with an equalizer and when I play it back on other devices it sounds like the lyrics are too loud or too over the beat. I know that everybody hears differently, but what types of tools or methods have helped you create tracks where the instruments were fully hearable and the voice still stood out?
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Old 09-05-2008, 02:46 AM
musicalavtech musicalavtech is offline
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Default Re: Voice to the front, Instruments to the back

Some decent monitors would help. A mix will sound better or worse on other systems but when it sounds right on your monitors then perhaps have it mastered.
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Old 09-05-2008, 10:58 AM
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Default Re: Voice to the front, Instruments to the back

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Originally Posted by JMonroe24 View Post
I have been working with Pro Tools a little bit, but one thing I can't put my finger on is how to push lyrics to the front over a beat. I know this goes along with mixing and mastering, but I have dropped out elements of the beat with an equalizer and when I play it back on other devices it sounds like the lyrics are too loud or too over the beat. I know that everybody hears differently, but what types of tools or methods have helped you create tracks where the instruments were fully hearable and the voice still stood out?
This can depend a lot on the voice and instrumentation.

My most used techniques are a mix of:

Compression - to even out dynamics
Automation - to bring things up or down independent of overall dynamics
EQ - carving out 'space' for the vocals. This can apply to eq'ing the voice or eq'ing other tracks.
Effects - double tracking the vocal, using delays to thicken it and proper reverb to get it to sit in the mix.
Panning - main vox go center and then pan the other instrumentation around it - obviously keeping those other instruments, like kick and snare (most of the time) center as well. This gives additional space for the vocal to sit properly in the mix.

With reverb I like dense early reflections or a plate with a very short decay that sits subtly under the vocal - you can't hear it until you remove it and then you'll notice the vocal sounds 'flatter'.

No one method works in every situation, so it's best to experiment, read all you can and maybe even 'deconstruct' what's going on in a mix that you like - listening carefully you'll be able to hear what they're doing with the instrumentation and voice to get everything to work harmoniously.
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Old 09-08-2008, 08:10 AM
JMonroe24 JMonroe24 is offline
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Smile Re: Voice to the front, Instruments to the back

Thanks for the help. Im starting to get better mixes now. It seems to be that the snare and the kick are in the center and up higher than all the other instruments. Then all the other instruments are mixed a lot lower so when vocals come into play you have less trouble. Thanks for the suggestions. Also, I am using some KRK RP5's to do my mixing on so I know im getting an entry level mix, but im trying to see if I can tweak it a little better.
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Old 09-08-2008, 03:42 PM
DJ Hellfire DJ Hellfire is offline
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Default Re: Voice to the front, Instruments to the back

Can I jack this thread? Thanks! I am having similar issues. I notice that when I put a master plug-in to bring the levels up, everything comes up nicely, but my drums seem to get highly compressed out of the mix, mainly the snare and you can hear it as good as I would like. I try to go back and increase the snare more, but it just doesn't sound the same. And someone on hear gave some wise advise to me last month; "everytime you compress past -15db, God kills a cat." And it's definitely getting compressed below that. I am using KRK Rokit 8's. How do you deal with this?

Also, before applying a mastering plug-in to the master fader, where should the over all mix be bouncing at on the master fader meter? Hanging around 0db, just before clipping? Or more down in the high green to low yellow?
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Old 09-08-2008, 04:12 PM
SeedGuy SeedGuy is offline
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Default Re: Voice to the front, Instruments to the back

A mastering limiter will ALWAYS make your snares lose their transients, making them sound lifeless, and squashed. Holding back on the threshold is really the only way to keep them.

By turning the snare up afterwards it is only making things worse. Turning it down will probably help it sound better as a matter of fact, as it won't be hitting the limiter as hard.

I usually only use around 3db of limiting. And I use a buss compressor with a slow attack and low ratio before the limiter too, to try and tame the mix without killing the transients. If you want ALL those snare peaks fully flat though you will lose some crack.
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Old 09-08-2008, 04:40 PM
DJ Hellfire DJ Hellfire is offline
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Default Re: Voice to the front, Instruments to the back

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A mastering limiter will ALWAYS make your snares lose their transients, making them sound lifeless, and squashed. Holding back on the threshold is really the only way to keep them.

By turning the snare up afterwards it is only making things worse. Turning it down will probably help it sound better as a matter of fact, as it won't be hitting the limiter as hard.

I usually only use around 3db of limiting. And I use a buss compressor with a slow attack and low ratio before the limiter too, to try and tame the mix without killing the transients. If you want ALL those snare peaks fully flat though you will lose some crack.



And with all of that, you maintian near industry -0.5db levels?
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Old 09-09-2008, 02:47 AM
SeedGuy SeedGuy is offline
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Default Re: Voice to the front, Instruments to the back

Almost. But I'm not a mastering engineer, and don't want to squash the life out of my tracks by using a waves L3 just to make it loud if it sounds bad in the process. If I was commercially selling my stuff then I'd send it to someone the has the proper gear and knows exactly what they're doing with it, and not just use a few plug's on the master fader.
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:16 AM
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Default Re: Voice to the front, Instruments to the back

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And with all of that, you maintian near industry -0.5db levels?
The question doesn't follow. It's almost a non-sequiter.

The 'industry standard' -0.5dbFS is just a peak measurement and is as easy to obtain as finding the highest peak in your program material and bringing up the master gain until it would peak at -.5. It has nothing to do with perceived volume, or dynamics or anything else that would determine how well a song (or album) was mastered.

Quote:
A mastering limiter will ALWAYS make your snares lose their transients, making them sound lifeless, and squashed
I would disagree with that - it depends on the snare sound, the limiter you're using, how much you're limiting and any number of other factors. It's true that allowing transients through by using a slow attack will generally keep the snare snappy sounding, but there are a whole host of other issues and considerations to account for.

The thing with most of this is there's no single 'do this, then do this' method to getting great results. You have to know the tools and, in doing so, you'll be able to determine the best option for the result you're trying to obtain.

Quote:
I notice that when I put a master plug-in to bring the levels up, everything comes up nicely, but my drums seem to get highly compressed out of the mix, mainly the snare and you can hear it as good as I would like. I try to go back and increase the snare more, but it just doesn't sound the same. And someone on hear gave some wise advise to me last month; "everytime you compress past -15db, God kills a cat." And it's definitely getting compressed below that.
That much compression will almost certainly kill an overall mix.

The first question to ask is - why are you trying to bring the levels up? Was the mix inadequate in that respect? I think going back to the original mix and making it sound great before getting into any mastering would be the better way to go. This means making sure dynamics are all tamed (I tend to use automation over compression/limiting) everything is clear and present and there are no individual tracks with excessive peaks.

I think maybe you're getting into the trap of 'louder is better'. Grab a mix that you think sounds great, bring the audio file into your session and A/B it with your mix. It may help in figuring out what it is about your mix that isn't working properly.

Most of all - experiment!
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Old 09-09-2008, 02:51 PM
DJ Hellfire DJ Hellfire is offline
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Default Re: Voice to the front, Instruments to the back

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Originally Posted by DigiTechSupt View Post
The question doesn't follow. It's almost a non-sequiter.

The 'industry standard' -0.5dbFS is just a peak measurement and is as easy to obtain as finding the highest peak in your program material and bringing up the master gain until it would peak at -.5. It has nothing to do with perceived volume, or dynamics or anything else that would determine how well a song (or album) was mastered.



I would disagree with that - it depends on the snare sound, the limiter you're using, how much you're limiting and any number of other factors. It's true that allowing transients through by using a slow attack will generally keep the snare snappy sounding, but there are a whole host of other issues and considerations to account for.

The thing with most of this is there's no single 'do this, then do this' method to getting great results. You have to know the tools and, in doing so, you'll be able to determine the best option for the result you're trying to obtain.



That much compression will almost certainly kill an overall mix.

The first question to ask is - why are you trying to bring the levels up? Was the mix inadequate in that respect? I think going back to the original mix and making it sound great before getting into any mastering would be the better way to go. This means making sure dynamics are all tamed (I tend to use automation over compression/limiting) everything is clear and present and there are no individual tracks with excessive peaks.

I think maybe you're getting into the trap of 'louder is better'. Grab a mix that you think sounds great, bring the audio file into your session and A/B it with your mix. It may help in figuring out what it is about your mix that isn't working properly.

Most of all - experiment!

The main reason I want to bring the levels up is that I put all my songs on my Ipod to listen to in the car or at work. Sometimes I like to just hit shuffle songs. One of my songs comes on and the volume is way lower than a song I ripped from a store bought cd. So I turn it up and after it goes off, the next song is blasting. I always get the mix the way I want it before adding the master limiter, then I just tweak it from there. I'm not in any louder is better traps. Just want all the songs in my music library to be similar in volume. That's all.
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