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  #441  
Old 02-19-2015, 12:29 PM
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YYR123 YYR123 is offline
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Default Please Avid We All Really Want You to Be Successful

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Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
I wouldn't say that Avid "totally dominates" the live sound market..

The last two shows I've been to have both used Avid consoles

Eric Johnson / Mike Stern - A Profile

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  #442  
Old 02-19-2015, 01:33 PM
Bill Denton Bill Denton is offline
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Default Re: Please Avid We All Really Want You to Be Successful

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Originally Posted by Justin1524 View Post
Am I the only one still perplexed by the new perpetual licensing thing? Here's why...

1.) Avid puts out a major new release approx. every 2 years (e.g. version 9, version 10, version 11 and now 12).
2.) In each new major release there are usually a slew of new features.
3.) In between major releases, there are lots of minor releases (e.g. 11.x to 11.1) and in every case, bug fixes with each minor release.
4.) Bug fixes are free right?

My point is, it's impossible to separate out bug fixes from new features in a software release and, in every release, there have always, always been some bug fixes.

To me what this translates into is Avid essentially charging the same price (albeit 3-6 times higher than the competition). Just buy the upgrade for a year, let it lapse for a year and buy the next major release when it comes out (For HD, 1 yr subscription $599, 1 year lapse 0, new release, new subscription full price $1,199). Err well, who knows what they'll be charging in 2 years. OMG this IS confusing. Ok forget it. How about we go back to just paying 1 price for new major releases when they come out? Of the things I subscribe to, my DAW software shouldn't be one of them. Who agrees?
You're letting the cart get out ahead of you...

My point is, it's impossible to separate out bug fixes from new features in a software release and, in every release, there have always, always been some bug fixes.

The relevant issue is what is called transaction overhead.

Suppose you go to the grocery store today and buy one can of beans.

Then tomorrow, you go to the store and buy 10 cans of beans.

There are a few little things that happen before the first item moves down the conveyor belt...the checker greets you, in the US they scan your loyalty card...little stuff like that.

Then after the last item has been rung up and bagged, they have to collect money or have you scan your debit/credit card, things like that.

And basically, no matter how many cans of beans you buy, they have to do those things before and after the process is complete. And there are costs associated with those things...even though it may be a tiny fraction of a US cent, you have labor costs, costs for lights/heating/cooling, costs for maintaining the POS registers, things like that.

So it is when you are working against a "version-oriented" release model. There is a transaction overhead cost associated with a software release...obviously you want to cram as many things into a "release" as possible, and you want to have the fewest possible releases in a given time period.

But, every bug fix, every major new feature...each of them is typically one or more projects. Typically, what is to be included in a release is often not decided until a week (or sometimes less) before the release date.

That's an advantage of moving to "versionless" software...often you can significantly reduce transaction overhead overall, as it is not necessary to manage a single large product...release management can often be done by folks a lot farther down the food chain. Also, you don't have to wait until some arbitrary "release date" before getting it out the door...you can "ship it out" as soon as it's ready.
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Note that all opinions, observations, whatever, in this post are mine, unless I'm being mean or am wrong, in which case it's somebody else's fault. I do not work for Avid (their loss)...my only relationship with Avid is that of a customer (when I'm not too poor to buy stuff, like now)...and that hot administrative assistant...that's more of a "thing" than a "relationship" (that should keep them guessing for a while...)

Just rockin'...what more is there?

Bill in Pittsburgh
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  #443  
Old 02-19-2015, 01:40 PM
Bill Denton Bill Denton is offline
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Default Re: Please Avid We All Really Want You to Be Successful

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Originally Posted by Cowboy Bob View Post
The other thing that, for me, is confusing is how the upgrades, NOT updates, are going to handled.

For example: In my previous life I was a ME working for an international company. We had "maintenance/subscriptions" to the two biggest players in 3D solid modeling engineering software. BUT the deployment was NEVER on the current release. Users were typically back 2 releases from current. There was continual testing of the new versions to be certain that there were relatively few issues that would cause mission critical activities to cease. We had 1100 seats, (licenses) of XYZ and we could access any of the last 3, plus current versions, up to that number.

So, I am running PT current version and I keep a subscription current, pay my dues every year on time before the end of the subscription period, and PT newer version is released, but because of plug in or hardware issues, I choose NOT to install it. I keep using what I am using and keep my subscription up to date. Then PT super cool version comes out. I have upgraded hardware or plugins, whatever, and I can now take advantage of the enhanced features in PT super cool. I want to install it skipping over PT newer version.

OR will we be able to have combo license for 10-11-12 or whatever as long as our dues have been paid.

Maybe I am being too convoluted here.
Not at all convoluted...

Things may be a little screwed up for a while, as Avid absolutely must get rid of all of the licenses that aren't on a service plan as soon as possible, and there was the jump to AAX.

But in my experience, again, with versionless software, as long as you're not more than six months or so behind it's not a problem. But they don't want to have to deal with people wanting support for things that were fixed often months previously, but user's typically have far fewer reasons to need to wait, as they don't have to deal with the large number of problems that inevitably accompany a large release...
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Note that all opinions, observations, whatever, in this post are mine, unless I'm being mean or am wrong, in which case it's somebody else's fault. I do not work for Avid (their loss)...my only relationship with Avid is that of a customer (when I'm not too poor to buy stuff, like now)...and that hot administrative assistant...that's more of a "thing" than a "relationship" (that should keep them guessing for a while...)

Just rockin'...what more is there?

Bill in Pittsburgh
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  #444  
Old 02-19-2015, 01:56 PM
paul007 paul007 is offline
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Default Re: Please Avid We All Really Want You to Be Successful

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Originally Posted by Bill Denton View Post
Not at all convoluted...

Things may be a little screwed up for a while, as Avid absolutely must get rid of all of the licenses that aren't on a service plan as soon as possible, and there was the jump to AAX.

But in my experience, again, with versionless software, as long as you're not more than six months or so behind it's not a problem. But they don't want to have to deal with people wanting support for things that were fixed often months previously, but user's typically have far fewer reasons to need to wait, as they don't have to deal with the large number of problems that inevitably accompany a large release...
So if PT becomes versionless,
you can't be fixed on an "old" version if your support plan lapses.
That's good news.
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  #445  
Old 02-19-2015, 02:19 PM
25ghosts 25ghosts is offline
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Default Re: Please Avid We All Really Want You to Be Successful

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Originally Posted by Barry Johns View Post
A lot of us are complaining, me included, but I think most of us come from the perspective that we love working with Protools and the hardware associated with it. We all want to continue the amazing relationship we have with the DAW that we all love so much. I know I do. I'm having a blast right now teaching my eleven year old son how to record and use protools, and I want him to be using it 30 years from now any beyond.

I personally understand, that Avid has to achieve a certain bottom line to be successful. I just hope there is some way to achieve that and retain what we are all comfortable with.

Avid, this roll out has been a mess, learn from it, be honest and admit it, change what is necessary, and not all change comes with pleasing everyone. Actually, its impossible to please everybody. Be honest with all of us, there is great power with that. If the company cannot sustain itself with trying to be everything to everyone, then just say it. I personally can respect that, even if I end up being one of the ones it can't sustain.

Never, not once in my very long relationship with Digidesign/Avid have I ever recommend a new user to go with another choice other than Protools. Today, I'm recommending everyone I know, to get as far away from Protools as you can.

That's not good for Avid and frankly, more importantly, its not good for me, as my best interest are with a successful Avid with Protools being the center of it.
Barry, I too am finding myself not recommending Protools anymore. It is simply put too far behind feature-wise. Still NO Channelstrip-Save which Logic has had for years. Logic 10 is so far ahead of Protools (Performance wise too) that I would not even know where to begin to describe it... I still keep my PT11 rig up to date and have it sitting there but for a me as a composer, writer and Mixer - it is no longer viable to work in that environment. I can compose a song in Logic, literally, 10 times faster than in Protools. Protools wastes a lot of time with redundant tasks. Especially when it comes to loading plug-ins and macros of those. Most my tracks have between 5 and 15 inserts. In logic I can flip between them in a blaze in Protools I literally have to insert ALL 15 and load their individual Preset. This is alone is drawing me to logic. Editing wise Protools is still my preference as I like its transport (Maybe cuz I am so used to it) but Logic has been doing (And Copying) a lot to catch up and is slowly getting there....

I no longer have a fan-preference to any DAW whatsoever, I use what gets the job done the fastest and easiest. And Protools seems in this regard to be 10 years behind its competition. Nice to be able to record with a drummer in Dubai... But what if the internet connection is not working etc etc etc. I like the idea though. But if that is all PT12 has to offer and nothing is being done about making life easier concerning redundant tasks... I fear that PT12 will be the last cycle I will install on my mac. Sad but true.. 5 years ago IMO Protools had zero competition and was a loner on the top. Today, it is also a loner... but in the other end.

Anyway, it has all been predicted. On this forum as well. Look back in posts dating far back. This aint news.. This is AVID having completely ignored what their users asked for !!!
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  #446  
Old 02-19-2015, 02:25 PM
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Cowboy Bob Cowboy Bob is offline
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Default Re: Please Avid We All Really Want You to Be Successful

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Originally Posted by Bill Denton View Post
Not at all convoluted...

Things may be a little screwed up for a while, as Avid absolutely must get rid of all of the licenses that aren't on a service plan as soon as possible, and there was the jump to AAX.

But in my experience, again, with versionless software, as long as you're not more than six months or so behind it's not a problem. But they don't want to have to deal with people wanting support for things that were fixed often months previously, but user's typically have far fewer reasons to need to wait, as they don't have to deal with the large number of problems that inevitably accompany a large release...
Yes, but perhaps I am being misunderstood. I WOULD be current in my service plan. Thus I WOULD be current with the versionless version that was delivered to my Avid account or wherever that winds up being.

I may NOT wish to be current with what I have actually installed on my machines. I don't really foresee this, but it is a possibility, especially if I am waiting to update/upgrade hardware.

If I must surrender a license each time a new versionless version is delivered but NOT installed that will be an issue. If I have to surrender a license when I install the latest versionless version, no issue. As long as I control when and if I install any new versionless version.

I can fully see and understand that, although my service plan IS current, that unless I have the current versionless version installed, support from Avid would not possibly apply.
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  #447  
Old 02-19-2015, 02:53 PM
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YYR123 YYR123 is offline
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Default Please Avid We All Really Want You to Be Successful

What I still have a problem with is....secondhand licenses

I can't sell my version of PT that I am locked at. Let's say I upgrade to 12 (not planning on it, but for grins let's say I do)

And I don't re-up my plan. I get locked at 12.8 (I know I know) then I can use it but they have eliminated a way for me to legitimately sell that asset....

So it just sits in my account?
so with Way to upgrade it, (ie buy back in) it just collects virtual dust....I can't even sell it....


This is what I don't like....
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  #448  
Old 02-19-2015, 03:18 PM
seanbil seanbil is offline
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Default Re: Please Avid We All Really Want You to Be Successful

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Originally Posted by Bill Denton View Post
And my point was that seanbil picked a bad analogy...nothing more and nothing less. seanbil stated, "Imagine an architect commissioned to design a house. Blueprints are eventually handed over to a contractor who erects four walls. The contractor then returns to the architect and asks for the rest of the blueprints ..."

All I did was point out that what seanbil had described had been common in construction for several decades.
Bill, I think you failed to grasp the intent of the example you so eagerly cited. The scenario you quoted wasn't there to demonstrate what Avid is actually doing, but how they are being perceived by not being transparent. It's satire. It wasn't meant to be taken literally as you have done by explaining the existence of an esoteric, industry-specific concept like, "Fast Track" in order to prove the analogy invalid, and therefore the spirit of the message irrelevant. The whole purpose was to shed a humorous light on Avid's lack of transparency with respect to HD licensing. So if Avid truly does not know what they will do with HD licenses by now, and have only the blueprints of "four walls" on the table, then they truly are a ship of fools in need of a new captain to steer the ship. However, if you want to speak literally, and accept the fact that Avid has not a clue as to what they are doing, then how is waiting 9+ months to know the full story about HD licensing being "Fast Track"?

I'm well past the whole subscription/support model debate discussed at length in the "New Pro Tools Licensing" mega thread. Since some official Avid people have finally woken up from their slumber, I'm here in search of some simple answers to some simple questions that have nothing to do with Bill's canned, "Accounting is the Reason" responses, or the "Microsoft vs. Avid vs. Apple" debates, or the abstract lectures on how to run a successful business, or "This is GAAP Accounting 101". Seriously, enough with the white noise. For starters I simply want to know (yes/no), whether or not there will be a discounted reinstatement plan for lapsed HD licenses. This is a rather key piece of information being withheld from those of us planning and budgeting for studio upgrades this year. Avid should at least have the decency of responding with a "yes" or "no" answer to such a simple question. If they are legally unable to do so, then at least have the courtesy of saying as much. This is at least better than being lectured by some outsider who's constantly grasping at straws, trying to be the "first person" to guess why Avid is being so distant with us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Denton View Post
But, as far as that goes, "fast tracking" is very common in the music industry, too.

How often have you heard of an artist writing lyrics long after everything else has been recorded...sometimes even after he/she has begun recording the vocal.

And, not speaking specifically to you, reading this board shows how little most of the poster know about business in general, and that, while special talent may be required to do their specific job, their business is not totally unlike many other businesses, and looking at, and learning from other businesses could help them improve their business...
As you may or may not be aware, there are people on this forum running actual businesses, and not hypothetical ones with hypothetical dollars that can be freely spent without consequence. The fact that a lot of us here are supported 100% by the work that we love to do speaks volumes to the things we are doing right than to the things we are doing wrong. There is no one-size-fits-all solution to every scenario, in every business, in every industry, in every economy. So instead of spending your time searching for opportunities to insult the successes of those on this board, you could really benefit from some self-reflection yourself.
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  #449  
Old 02-19-2015, 03:20 PM
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Oblivion777 Oblivion777 is offline
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Default Plase Avid We All Really Want You to live Long and prevailmm. Quapla and ka the ProTo

Hmmm...well what I will add to this discussiom here is that I do believe that ProTools is (stll) the currentt de facto standard in the music/recording/tracking/mixing/post professional community. Whether you like it or not things have been chanhing in this industry a lot. Same can be said to apply do various broadcast, music, post or film audio industries. In fact a pararell could esiliy be drawn to the general broadcast indusrty currenly couping with various means and technologies and disrtibution(s) of their content. I am in the indusry present for the last 10+ yars. One of the main concerns for the broadcast indusrty has been the clash beteen the satellite distribution and fiber contribution. Of the programe conent versus fiber delivery. Whereas the satellite is more of a point to multipoint delivery method fiber is more of a home-to-home delivery method(s). Everyone has its favourites methods of signal delivey. What strikes me most is tne fact that the prponents of one method wildy discard all the arguments of the opposing camp regardless if the claims contained within them are relevant or not. And vice versa of course.

From my personal experience I have been listetning to "experts" saying that satellite transmissions (broadcast, data, IP ,etc.) will be made redundant in the next 5-8 years simply because other tech will take over (like fiber, high speed internet, etc.). That simposeums were held by the industry leaders 10+ years ago.

Going back to Avid. Do we all agree with the latest policy? NO. Are we okay with the pricing? Hell No (which would be true even if the HD11 to HD12 upgrade cost 99$. So we have people saying that PT are lost and peole will move from PT to some other DAW.

Judging from what I saw happened in the broadcast industry; I doubt it. Some will be pissed, others won't (at least not to that extent). But I have a feeling PT12 and beyond will survive - at least this initial test of time.

Wheter one wants to admite it or not, Pro Tools is still the industry standard. Now standards do change, but only when there is something very wrong. Otherwise the tendecy is to stick with a standard for better or for worse.

We'll see if I'm right pretty soon.
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  #450  
Old 02-19-2015, 03:44 PM
mesaone mesaone is offline
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Default Re: Plase Avid We All Really Want You to live Long and prevailmm. Quapla and ka the P

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Originally Posted by Oblivion777 View Post
Are we okay with the pricing? Hell No
We? I'm waiting for things to develop in 2015 before I make up my mind. I might end up being okay with the pricing, but I don't know yet since a lot of PTHD stuff hasn't been announced. It is possible that by December 2015 my opinion may be "Hell Yes", a lot can happen in 10 months.
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