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  #41  
Old 08-08-2004, 07:49 PM
grivel grivel is offline
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Default YES

>only to cause even more downward pressure on rates for commercial facilities. Post production is a >little less succeptible to this, but not by much

I agree with what you say here. However filmmixer, I don't necessarily think going el cheapo, with everything getting so plastic and cheap all over and "well, we can do exactly as what the big dubbing facility can do with the industry standard protools" prices plummeting to the ground, I don't think this is necessarily good for the audio post industry.

I think low end cheap stuff tends to de-value the job of the audio engineer. It basically creates downward pricing everywhere, and people are hanging on with a string to do whatever they can to compete with the next 'expert'.

I don't blame any of this on Digi. One can't blame anything on one sole company. Technology would have moved forward and cheaper anyway, and Digi just happened to be there at the right time and right place. It wasn't that their products years ago were necessarily any good. They haven't really done anything special. They copy alot of stuff from other companies, and just re-brand it. They were the pioneer of the home project/studio 'make records in your house' thing.

I do feel digi partially contributes to the downward pricing. Not entirely, put partially. So do many companies though.

>Post production is a little less succeptible to this, but not by much

Alot of people just 'pretend' in the post world, that things are so golden and livin' large...this is nonsense. Post is experiencing this too. Not to mention any bozo can do reality TV post in their house.

>aren't going to downgrade to ICONs. They may add some in smaller rooms, but they won't downgrade >their big rooms. It's going to be tough in the midrange market. We'll see.

Yes, this is what I say. MPC-DFC is in another world. A different market. Not a market for the home studio / personal engineer control surface. I can see maybe a couple here in there added to the last rooms / the small rooms, but even this I hardly see, as a variety of the large corporate union facilities are not as busy as one would think. It's a little bit slow right now overall. They are sticking to their guns to keep the machine running...

You have to ask yourself...if you were at a big facility...Would installing an ICON bring 90K MORE revenue than your existing Control-24's?
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  #42  
Old 08-09-2004, 05:49 AM
stackatrack stackatrack is offline
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Default Re: ICON

Hello All,
Do any of you actually believe that a digital console can sum multiple channels correctly ?
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  #43  
Old 08-09-2004, 08:54 AM
Blake A Blake A is offline
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Default Re: YES

Quote:
You have to ask yourself...if you were at a big facility...Would installing an ICON bring 90K MORE revenue than your existing Control-24's?

I don't know, lets do the math
Lets say I book only 25 hours a week in the room or 100 hours per month
4 year financing on $85K at 9% is only about 2000/month
Cool it only costs me $20/hr and even less if I book the room more than 25 hours a week or finance over 60 months.
Yes, I think I can get $15-$20 an hour more with the Icon over the control 24?

Now lets try it again if I buy a small $300K AMS or similar single operator 32 fader digital console.
Financing $295K over 4 years would be about $7300/month or almost $75 per hour of my room rate.
Don't know if that looks so inviting, especially since to most post producers who would book the room, the Icon looks every bit as good as the AMS and substantially better than the Control 24.
And it opens up the protools files they bring in directly onto the console.

Thanks Grivel, that was a great suggestion, maybe I'll open my own room!

Blake
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  #44  
Old 08-09-2004, 09:37 AM
Henchman Henchman is offline
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Default Re: YES

Quote:

Now lets try it again if I buy a small $300K AMS or similar single operator 32 fader digital console.
Financing $295K over 4 years would be about $7300/month or almost $75 per hour of my room rate.


Blake
You do understand that we are talking more about rooms that charge $500,- per/hour and up.
These are facilities that want to have enough room to have 20 people come in and watch a playback, if they want.
Building and maintaining these rooms is very expensive, so the cost of the console is a very small part of the equasion.
The audio-post budget is a drop in the bucket, and these type of projects want a big room, but most of all the infrastructure that comes along with the size of these type of studio's.

And I seriously doubt that exchanging a control 24 for an Icon will allow you to raise your price 15-20 per hour. Not in todays music market.
And low-budget post doesn't care. they'll have the picture editor mix it in his Avid if they can.
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  #45  
Old 08-09-2004, 11:36 AM
grivel grivel is offline
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Default Works

Glad I could help out.

So it basically comes to a business decision. Would it really bring in more revenue - if it is worth installing one in place of the Control-24.

The ICON has nothing to do with an AMS-Neve console. Those are priced for corporate / high end post, so no guy searching for pricing on an AMS-Neve would be downgrading to the ICON.

They are in 2 different camps, regardless if you think technically the ICON can imitate what a real console could do. You could say technically there are many products that can do what Pro Tools can do, but will they get used that way?

NO
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  #46  
Old 08-09-2004, 12:40 PM
The Eggman The Eggman is offline
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Default Re: Works

Quote:
The ICON has nothing to do with an AMS-Neve console. Those are priced for corporate / high end post, so no guy searching for pricing on an AMS-Neve would be downgrading to the ICON.


Grivel,

In the music studios, I think we WILL see studios who were previously thinking about SSL's choosing Icons instead. The main reasons for this would be:

1) SSL market is vastly oversold. You can find them in nearly every studio on the planet, which is why there is so much downward pressure on those studios. Too much competition.

2) These studios won't be that concerned with the fact that the Icon is "only" for protools, because nearly everyone in the music industry is working on that format anyway. If you ask "what happens 3 years later when there's a new software that doesn't work with the Icon", the answer would be "the icon is priced affordably enough for the major studios that they'll sell the icon and buy whatever the next surface is". No biggie.

I would think that even in Post houses, some of this thinking will make studios choose the Icon over AMS-Neve's, too.
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  #47  
Old 08-09-2004, 12:47 PM
Henchman Henchman is offline
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Default Re: Works

Quote:


Grivel,

In the music studios, I think we WILL see studios who were previously thinking about SSL's choosing Icons instead. The main reasons for this would be:

1) SSL market is vastly oversold. You can find them in nearly every studio on the planet, which is why there is so much downward pressure on those studios. Too much competition.

2) These studios won't be that concerned with the fact that the Icon is "only" for protools, because nearly everyone in the music industry is working on that format anyway. If you ask "what happens 3 years later when there's a new software that doesn't work with the Icon", the answer would be "the icon is priced affordably enough for the major studios that they'll sell the icon and buy whatever the next surface is". No biggie.

I would think that even in Post houses, some of this thinking will make studios choose the Icon over AMS-Neve's, too.
I can see the first point. But I can't see large post facilities dumping their large consoles for an Icon set-up.
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  #48  
Old 08-09-2004, 01:18 PM
Blake A Blake A is offline
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Default Re: Works

Henchman and Grivel,

The question was asked about changing out a control 24 which I assumed would be for a single operator post room - spots, 1/2 hour sitcoms, documentaries - not a $500/hr long form post room that seats 20 people. Lets stick to one argument at a time guys.

Grivel, if you seriously think that no Icons will be going into the type of rooms mentioned above then you should be prepared to be embarrassed when the announcements are made by digi on these sales. I have no doubt at all that in the next few months Icons will be going into post rooms at big media companies - networks, major Post companies. Maybe not at first into the $1000/hr dub stages but it will start in Predub rooms, B stages and when the necessary facilities are added to the platform - even the big stages. Not the mom and pops you condescendingly mention.

Hell, Pro Controls are already installed in the major facilities doing the mix work that was once only the domain of the big console companies - and Icon raises the bar on its capabilities.
You think the studios like having to pay $500K plus for one of those consoles. Shows aren't being posted at hourly rates anymore, its all package deals which puts downward pressure on the capital expense budgets and if facilities managers can get the equipment costs down and still mix the shows a generate profit- then they will.

You mentioned in a previous post something about these top studios like spending a million bucks on a film console because it puts them in an exclusive club.
Thats foolish- those days are over.

Rich
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  #49  
Old 08-09-2004, 03:01 PM
Henchman Henchman is offline
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Default Re: Works

Quote:
Henchman and Grivel,



You mentioned in a previous post something about these top studios like spending a million bucks on a film console because it puts them in an exclusive club.
Thats foolish- those days are over.

Rich
What puts them in an exclusive club is the facility as a whole. And the multiple services they provide.
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  #50  
Old 08-09-2004, 03:24 PM
grivel grivel is offline
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Default Re: Works

>In the music studios, I think we WILL see studios who were previously thinking about SSL's choosing >Icons instead. The main reasons for this would be:

Yes, this is highly possible. But my posts are regarding MPC and DFC. Those are dubbing consoles, not really used for music. I'm not that familiar with the music markets, but that is where I originally projected some possible success of the product. As well as lower-mid level post. Ad agencies etc...

SSL also is not a post company, so I didn't mean to mention the SSL vs ICON, if I did - it's my mistake.
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