New Licensing

[JFreak]

Originally Posted by CME

I really think the HD/vanilla divide may be their biggest weakness. What if they dropped the distinction and make one unified pro tools

As I have said already, I would just love that. Unfortunately, that would make that one unified PT software more expensive, so hobbyists would not agree.

That said, it is time I don't have to make excuses as a moderator who has only used HD software since I can't even remember anymore. Whatever anyone thought with PT SE or PT Express is beyond my abilities to understand. The infamously crippled LE software was crippled enough and while I did understand why two variants was necessary, I have zero idea why it needed to be crippled even more.

So yes, I'd love it if at least those extra crippled variants would go away.

Back in the day I heard lots of talk that "big boys don't like it if surround is available for everyone" and things like that. I call that nonsense. A million dollar studio has always an edge compared to home studio, and the talented guys will always mix faster and better than a hobbyist. What would be the downside if assistants could practice at home?

Anyway, this might be a good time to end this rant. I'd like it if PT was one unified software without HD/LE differences.

[JFreak]

Originally Posted by CME

I am thinking the $899 version will be available along side a $199 yearly non-perpetual license version. And if that were the case I don't see many people playing the $700 premium just to have a perpetual license, when more than likely you'll pay the $199 yearly anyways. So put the $700 towards 3 1/2 years of "support".

This is exactly what I want to be clarified before I can recommend this new licensing thing for anyone. I need more info just as every Tom, Dick and Harry.

[hamsterMan]

Originally Posted by noiseboyuk

Absolutely.

Long time lurkers, time to make your voice heard

Fine. Here it goes...

I have been following this thread for a little while, on and off, so I haven't really read all the posts here. From my perspective, there are a few things that are making me really distance myself from Avid.
I'm not against subscription. It's a trend that's being adopted, and different companies are experimenting with different approaches at it, with different degrees of success. However, IMO, Avid seem to be completely desperate to make a move for security at whatever price needs to be done. Why? Well...

First, there was the CPTK debacle. I am a CPTK user myself. When they decided to drop it, I was understandably disappointed. I then weighted the option of taking Avid's offer to "upgrade" to HD, against staying on Native. For now, I decided to stay on Native. There are several features I really miss from my CPTK (like VCA's), but I can work. I am a working musician, but the work I do is not big-scale projects... mostly commisioned music, production, mixing, solo projects, some post and audio -for-video work, etc. I don't need crazy track counts, nor surround. So, Native works for me.
I upgraded to 11 when it came out, and it has made a HUGE difference in my work. The new audio engine is just great. I haven't used it a LOT, due to some problems that have been present in it (like all the problems with the video engine), but for some music projects I've done, it's been amazing. Sessions that were dragging 10 down, flew like butterflies on 11.
Now, Avid comes telling me that they're moving onto a subscription model (fine), and that they want me to pay for the product I ALREADY PAID FOR, AGAIN. Sorry. No. End of the conversation. I don't care if you're offering me access to "premium support" (which in all these years I've NEVER needed... this forum has MUCH better support than Avid), and I don't care if you're giving it to me until 2049. No. Get it in your head. No. I already paid for your product. The ONLY acceptable way of dealing with this for me, is that all users who already upgraded to 11 get the first year of subscription for free. Why? Because it's actually not for free. We already paid for it. The rest of the users who are on previous versions pay for the move, just like they would pay for an upgrade. Anything else is borderline insulting.
I don't mind the $200 per year. At all. I can afford that. I consider it fair. PT is a GREAT product (even in the hands of Avid, who have decided to artificially cripple Native just because). But I'm not going to stand for a company trying to slide their hand into my pocket just because of some stupid reason they've made in their minds.
And this is why Avid appears to be desperate for me. They are trying to move onto a model that will provide more security to them, but they seem to be doing in a rush without any afterthought of how it's working, and how it impacts their users.

So, for me, this is the line on the sand. I'm glad I upgraded to 11, and this is where I leave the Avid bandwagon. I will continue to take the point releases, and I'm sure 11 will serve me for a loooong time (it's not like the industry makes products obsolete after 1 year). Once 11 is totally outdated and can't run anymore on whatever OS or motherboard I happen to have, then I'll look at what I'll move onto (Reaper, Studio 1, etc. I already have Ableton Live, so maybe they'll get some stuff right too). The way things are going, maybe Avid won't even be around by then.

I will, of course, send an email to Customer Care/Support to let them know how I feel. I don't expect any sort of reply, but I think it's the right thing to do. An honest relationship requires face-to-face communication. If anyone else feels like flooding Avid's email with your take on the situation, PLEASE do so, and do it in a civilized way. The person on the other end of the internet is not Avid, and did not take these decisions. They're just the person tasked with reading the emails.

And now, back to making music!

EDIT:
I'm quoting this from their FAQ.

Q. I’m already using Pro Tools 11. Do I get the new support plan and one year of upgrades?
A. The one-year Standard Avid Support plan for Pro Tools, which includes updates and upgrades, is only included with new Pro Tools | Software with support plan purchases and Pro Tools upgrades/crossgrades. If you already own Pro Tools 11, you can still take advantage of getting support and all upgrades/updates—including the cloud collaboration features—for a full year by purchasing the $199 (Pro Tools) or $599 (Pro Tools | HD) upgrade package. And if you upgrade by December 20, 2014 and activate your software by December 31, 2014, we’ll extend your support/upgrade benefits through March 31, 2016.

In theory, that doesn't sound too bad. I guess the question is what I'd be getting for my money until the date stated. It seems I'm paying for a sort-of promise.

[noiseboyuk]

Some great posts from the ex-lurkers.

Originally Posted by Righty27

From the outset, allowing support plans to lapse has been the primary issue in this thread, whether for 'vanilla' or HD. If Avid were now to back down and alter this aspect, we'd be worried it was temporary and inevitable a few years down the line!

That sums it up for me....

[Jay_uk]

Originally Posted by JFreak

Back in the day I heard lots of talk that "big boys don't like it if surround is available for everyone" and things like that. I call that nonsense. A million dollar studio has always an edge compared to home studio, and the talented guys will always mix faster and better than a hobbyist. What would be the downside if assistants could practice ar home?

I,m not sure that elitism has gone away but hey; thats for the academics.
Any large edifice comes under attack eventually and with PT it was probably with the decoupling of the hardware and setting PT free.
Whats that story about how a democratic group of designers were given a brief to design a Horse.. and thats how the Camel was born.
I think Avid are in danger of Camel mark II
Only because they are struggling financially and they are consolidating within their limitations. Lets hope they design a "Phoenix"
I,ll poodle along with Vanilla. Its not a big Shake but its still refreshing.

[Bill Denton]

Ya know, grilled chicken breasts are really good if you brush them with lemon juice before you cook them. Had to fill my car up yesterday, I'm getting really good mileage lately. When you cook the chicken, make sure your grill is not too hot because chicken burns easily. I've got a headlight burned our on my car, guess I better pick up a new bulb.

So, what was I talking about...cooking chicken, or my car?

It would probably be a lot easier to understand had I talked about them separately, right?

That's the problem with threads like this...you got a whole bunch of people talkin' 'bout and speculating 'bout two different things when they don't know anything about what they talkin' 'bout...

So let's split this into two subjects...and then it all becomes easy to understand...

Subscriptions

I doubt if Avid has even fully decided how they're going to implement subscriptions. And it doesn't matter, because they aren't implementing it yet. But they added the subscription stuff to the EULA (along with a lot of stuff straight out of Microsoft's EULA) now in order to prevent another Pro Control / Control 24 situation. Because, if and when Avid decides to implement subscriptions, they'll be able to say, "This is not a surprise, it's been in the EULA for "X" years".

So, we're done with subscriptions for now...

Pro Tools Standard Support

I'm going to buy your house. We'll sign the contract today. I will pay you on January 1, 2014. You will come back and put in a swimming pool when the weather warms up.

So, when can you count your money?

That's all this is about...

If you have been following the "annual report" thing for the last couple of years, and have actually read the other documents and NASDAQ and SEC letters, you would know that.

Accountants use what are called "Generally Accepted Accounting Principles" (GAAP) to tell them which "bucket" to put money in. These "standards" vary from country to country.

When Avid sells a copy of Pro Tools, the accountants put the money Avid receives in to the "bucket" determined by the GAAP. Unfortunately, in 2013, Avid determined they had been putting money into the wrong "buckets" since 2010. Avid could not file some reports until they straightened things out. Since they didn't file the reports on time, they were delisted by NASDAQ.

BTW...that's the same info I posted here a year or so ago.

Going back to me buying your house...GAAP would tell you when you could count your money. It might be when we sign the contract, it might be when I pay you, or it might be when you put in the pool.

Avids accounting problem stemmed from the fact that they sell a software license, then they provide updates. If it's a bug-fix, GAAP says put some money in one bucket...if it adds features, then it goes into a different bucket, and in Avid's accounting system, they have to count the money at two different times. And that created a problem for Avid, as there was no fixed end point for when updates came out.

Pro Tools Standard Support simply establishes a fixed end point, which makes it easier for Avid to deal with the accounting issues.

That's all there is to it...

And regarding the Wells Fargo thing, on July 31, 2014, Avid's line of credit with Wells Fargo was $25 million, of which Avid had borrowed $15 million. Think about all of the new stuff Avid has released in the last year.

Sometimes it's better tax-wise and accounting-wise to use borrowed money for product development than it is to use money from your pocket.

Avid has a sh*tload of cash...they didn't have to borrow, but it was probably more advantageous for them to do so.

So let's end this thread...Avid has explained how the Pro Tools Standard Support is going to work, and they will explain how the subscription model works if and when they implement it...there is no need for further speculation...

[wmcintyre]

I'm a little confused by this...
I have already upgraded from HD10 to HD11,
do I have to buy this again?

[Jay_uk]

^^ You just made Bill spill his Coffee

[NipL]

Originally Posted by Bill Denton

So let's end this thread...Avid has explained how the Pro Tools Standard Support is going to work, and they will explain how the subscription model works if and when they implement it...there is no need for further speculation...

I don't agree with this - but who am I, right.

a) Tony made a comment that standard support might work like something close to MediaComposer - but nothing is decided yet, but soon everybody will know.

b) After Tony's comment FAQ was updated, but did not add the final wordings that MC FAQ has - about having to buy new license if support plan elapse. This is a loose end.

So there is still ambiguoity(how is this spelled?) about what you claim is crystal clear.
- can support plan be re-entered with some penalty less than a new license
- or will MC style licensing be implemented

Sorry, but speculations continue...

[rainsong]

I may be in the minority that feel this way, but a large portion of the concern and ill feelings about all of this is that I already feel like I've paid for beta software with PT11...

Random latency and unstable offline bouncing are still issues I have to work around to use PT11. Which (again) I already paid for. And has been out for well over a year.

There's plenty of features in PT11 that I love (which is why I'm putting up with the headaches it's also causing me), but the bugs can still be maddening.

Seems like a company in Avid's shoes should be feeling the need to make right by customers who's work has been hampered over the last year by a product they sold them. And charging us more money for something that is certainly improved since 11.0 but is still not finished IMO, shows the opposite of that mentality. It also doesn't do much to instill faith that a yearly subscription is going to result in owning a stable product.

Couple all of that with the fact that there's plenty of viable (and uncrippled) alternatives for much less money, and it gets harder and harder to feel good about paying a yearly fee to Avid.