How many samples delay can most people track with

[Amack]

NewdestinyX / Others ("We")

Originally Posted by NewdestinyX

Neither was I. Read more carefully, Amack. You miss very important things when we're talking to you. Slow down. I never mentioned HD|Native.

Sorry! I guess your use of "Native systems" confused me. Who are "we"? - I know that I asked you that before, but you never responded!

Originally Posted by NewdestinyX

I know what I'm talking about Amack. I've been doing this a very long time. I assure you it's not possible to achieve sub 2ms latency in Native systems monitoring thru plugins in real time while recording at 48K.

Originally Posted by NewdestinyX

So was I. My answer was regarding regular ProTools with 3rd party interfaces. With them - it is IMPOSSIBLE to achieve sub-2ms latency at 48K and listen to plugins at the same time. The only way to achieve it is to turn on LOW LATENCY MONITORING which automatically turns off all plugins on the channel you're recording to.

My Studio Capture has 81 samples of delay when monitoring thru its mixer. A 48 kHz sample rate = 48,000 samples/second = 48 samples/millisecond (ms). (81 samples) / (48 samples/ms) = 1.69 ms. This is what I referred to as Direct Monitoring Latency (DML) in my recently closed latency measurement thread. I used an oscilloscope to measure DMLs for both my Roland Studio Capture and Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 before I figured out how to do it more directly with PT – as shown in the aforementioned thread. Since the 6i6 uses an analog mixer, it offers an even lower DML of 0.572 ms at 48 kHz.

To achieve these low latencies while recording/tracking with PT, it’s necessary to leave Low Latency Monitoring (LLM) “OFF” (so the monitored tracks can be heard through PT and the “Playback Engine” (PE)). The mixer in the PE also has to be setup to monitor both the appropriate PT tracks and PE inputs. Automatic Delay Compensation (ADC) should be enabled so that the delays on all tracks are equal. Finally, PT 12.1’s new “Auto Input Monitoring Mode” should be selected for all of the record enabled punch-in tracks.

If PT works right, everything should be properly synchronized in the recording and the performer(s) will only “hear” the (< 2 ms) DML. No plugins are bypassed and PT’s H/W Buffer Size(s) has no impact on the perceived latency (DML). So, it seems wise to maximize the Buffer Size(s) to maximize PT’s “stability”.

I don’t really know how HD Native (and associated AVID hardware) works, but it appears that switches rather than mixers are likely used for LLM – is that right? HDX apparently does use mixers so, as long as no host plugins are used and none of the HDX plugins add delay to its monitored audio inputs, HDX reportedly should offer 0.7 ms DML.

Unlike PT with modern third party interfaces, and apparently PT|HD Native with AVID interfaces, HDX may provide lower latency monitoring of “live” inputs going thru its own plugins. That’s really the only advantage I can see.

2015-07-15 Correction: HDX's advertised 0.7 ms DML is for a 96 kHz sample rate. In post #71 of the "Measuring Latency, Scarlett 6i6, DiGiGrid, etc." thread propower measured 0.47 ms with HD Native at 96 kHz and 1.9 ms at 44.1 kHz. So HDX at 44.1 kHz likely has more than 1.9 + (0.7 - 0.47) ms = 2.13 ms DML ("audible" tracking latency without plugins) with those AVID HD interfaces.

Amack

[NewdestinyX]

You're wrong Amack. You can throw out all the numbers you wish it doesn't change the fact that it's not possible to monitor sub 2ms latency thru plugins using 3rd party interfaces.

The main part you're missing is that in non-HDX or non-Accel systems the ADC for the plugins you're trying to monitor while recording can't be compensated for without the additional latency they add. There are some plugins with minimal latency and that would help minimize anything added to your 'alleged' 1.86ms latency. But most plugins you would want add a lot more. So if you monitor with zero plugins - SOME interface out there capable of buffer 64 MAY get close WITHOUT plugins added - but after plugins - no WAY. Remember ADC can't compensate for plugins on a live recorded track.. in a non HDX/HD Accel system.

[Amack]

NewdestinyX (Others),

I’m not sure if we disagree or agree. But the description provided in the new thread called “Low Latency Tracking without Pro Tools HD Native or HDX” might help us determine that!

2015-07-16 Update: The referenced thread was moved to the "Measuring Latency, Scarlett 6i6, DiGiGrid, etc." post#248

Amack

Originally Posted by NewdestinyX

You're wrong Amack. You can throw out all the numbers you wish it doesn't change the fact that it's not possible to monitor sub 2ms latency thru plugins using 3rd party interfaces.

The main part you're missing is that in non-HDX or non-Accel systems the ADC for the plugins you're trying to monitor while recording can't be compensated for without the additional latency they add. There are some plugins with minimal latency and that would help minimize anything added to your 'alleged' 1.86ms latency. But most plugins you would want add a lot more. So if you monitor with zero plugins - SOME interface out there capable of buffer 64 MAY get close WITHOUT plugins added - but after plugins - no WAY. Remember ADC can't compensate for plugins on a live recorded track.. in a non HDX/HD Accel system.

[cwsand]

This topic is all very interesting and good to know, but why obsess over it? I'd rather spend my time making music...

[Amack]

cwsand,

I'm just trying to understand DAW hardware/software capabilities, limitations, and usage so I can help my college student son succeed in the business - if he chooses to continue with that pursuit. Thanks for your patience and understanding as I do so!

V.R.
Amack

Originally Posted by cwsand

This topic is all very interesting and good to know, but why obsess over it? I'd rather spend my time making music...

[cwsand]

Originally Posted by Amack

cwsand,

I'm just trying to understand DAW hardware/software capabilities, limitations, and usage so I can help my college student son succeed in the business - if he chooses to continue with that pursuit. Thanks for your patience and understanding as I do so!

V.R.
Amack

Fair enough!