Dead kick drums...

[Sean Rathman]

Audio guru's advice wanted!

Alright, I'm getting dissappointed with the kick sounds I've been getting lately... I don't necessarily think that I'm doing anything differently than I have been doing in years past, but more that I'm pushing the bar up on my standards a bit.

What am I after? A good ballsy thump that you feel but with a tight focused snap that cuts through the mix. Examples: Tower of Power, Soul Vaccination, Live... Or a lot of the Dave Matthews stuff, particularly the recent Live in Chicago release. Most of Glen Ballard's (producer) stuff kinda has the kick I'm looking for...

I'm happy with my live technique... I usually use a Shure Beta 52 mounted inside the kick, between the heads, centered and about four inches off the beater. I know every kick drum is different, and every drummer maintains them differently. Last night I had the best luck with an AKG D-112, just barely poking through the sound hole on the front head.

I don't use any compression live... I might lob off the peaks with a limiter if I need to... I tend to Boost the low shelving significantly (6db) and cut about the same sweeping mids all the way down to about 160Hz... Then I'll push my highs until I get a nice snap... About 4db... FYI- live, I'm using a Mackie SR 32-4 mixer, so I've only got three bands of eq to play with...

I can't get this technique to translate well to my Pro Tools sessions at work on TDM or at home on the 001... In both environments, I tend to focus exclusively on Waves Platinum Bundle plug-ins... I sometimes use the Digi-Rack effects as well...

In the studio I will use compression on the kick... Usually I'll use the Waves Rennaissance Comp set at about 5:1 with a relatively fast attack (usually 12ms) and likewise a fast release (about 80ms).

I've tried several mics... the D-112, the Beta 52, the Audio Technica Pro-25, the Sennheiser MD421, etc... I've tried several placements... I've tried several accomplished drummers...

What's working for you guys?

Thanks in advance!

Sean

Oh... Also, has anyone tried the Shure Beta 91? Results?

[Rock_Artist]

This one is about unfair but sometimes when I get a lousy drummer I don't waste time on fixing him.
Get up SoundReplacer, gets the bands "I want us to sound like that" CD and find the closest kick samples I have.

Its a cruel world outhere...

[go i huvet]

A friend of mine and his band just released their 2:nd album...the drummer sucked playing the kick.....so the trigged it...I don´t think the drummer knows about this at all..HA!!

Yeah, well...

[Dreamware]

Don't forget to start at the source as well. If you have a $500 drum kit its not going to sound the same as a $2000 Tamma kit.

[Vastapol]

This article has helped me a lot :
http://www.recordingwebsite.com/articles /eqprimer.html

Advice on the kick:
Try to find the most cardbox-like frequency, it's usually somewhere between 400-500 khz.Cut it out as much as possible with a shelving EQ.(McDSP is my fave). If you need more slap add some @ 4k or so. I never boost the lows.The kick needs to co-exist with the bass; sometimes I even use a hi- pass filter on the kick(experiment) to make room for the bass, also try boosting the exact frequencies you cut on the kick(and vice versa)
Sometimes it helps sending a lame sounding kick thru a plug-in like the Bomb Factory PSA 1/McDSP Analog Channel etc. to beef it up.

Hope that helps.

[Jopry]

The EQ suggestions by Vastapol are right on. but, you might want to try this in addition: send all of the drums and cymbols, maybe the bass as well depending on how it sounds, with a strong signal to a stereo aux track. on the stereo aux track, first put a compressor inline followed by an EQ. hit the compressor hard and boost the volume to where it hits just below red. Then, with your mix already in place, bring this aux track up on the fader until it sits just below the drums,cymbol and bass levels. This should tighten up the drums considerable and tends to make the cymbols "come alive". Careful not over use the volumne on the aux track. This is a mixing trick that supposedely originated from the New York area and is sometimes called the "New York Compression trick" by some. Good luck and happy mixing!

[unclemurray]

I usually put my whole drum mix except for snare into an aux and compress the aux just a bit. Then, i put an eq & compressor on the kick before it hits the aux. The faster your attack time on the compressor, the more you're going to soften the drum, so back off on the attack until you get a good balance of compression and attack. I usually roll off 400-600k and boost anywhere b/t 3000-7000k for click depending on sound. By the time the kick hits the aux track, it gets another little touch of compression and jumps right through the mix.

[Sean Rathman]

I really appreciate everyone's advice! I haven't tried grouping all of the drums into one stereo track yet... You really find these results to be better than giving each instrument their own comp/gate/eq? I'll definitely give it a shot... In fact, I'll probably try out Jared's "New York Compression Trick" tonight...

Dreamware... Excellent point, but unfortunantely not the problem... Most of the kits the guys I work with own are either Yamaha Maple Customs or Sonor Designer Series. There's a jazz group I work with where the drummer uses a vintage Gretsch, but I take a different approach all together to that kit and I'll leave that for another day... Although I do sometimes wonder if some of these guys know what they're doing when they tune/maintain their instruments... Since you brought up the issue of the instrument it self, I will pose a few more questions: Drums are one of the few instruments I don't play... (although I play a mean sequencer!) As engineers should we be able to, or bold enough to, step in and tune a drum set? Also, when is it necessary to pull that front head off? Benefits? Drawbacks?

Rock Artist and Go i huvet... I agree that you've got a great approach there for not-so-great drummers... However, I don't think the drummers are the issue... I think the engineer is...

Ya'll know how it is... I've been doing this for a few good years... I get pretty good results... But don't you have things in your mix that when you compare it to your favorite mixes they just kinda leave you wondering a bit?

To Vastapol and Unclemurray... This also might get me somewhere... As you read in my first post, I've been cutting a bit lower than this. It's where I have liked the sound with the kick soloed, personally, but it might be the source of some of my heartache when I get to the whole mix. What kind of Q width are you using when you cut in the low-mids? Cutting as low as I have and then boosting the lows has always left me with a solid thump devoid of nasty rings... My reasoning, as also a pro-bassist, has been also that by cutting where I do I'm notching out a place for the bass guitar to jump out. In some cases I have even gone to the extreme of selecting the key of the tune and notching a few db (maybe two) out of the kick with a very narrow Q... (example: if the song is in A, I'll cut at 55Hz...) This has proven to be helpful especially when the bassist is playing thumb-style in a groove oriented song... It allows the tonic note a little more space to breathe...

Never the less... a lack-luster kick... Ya'll seem to agree that I may be cutting a bit low, So I will play around with that as well...

Another school of thought entirely: I read, I think in Mix magazine once, but have never tried a technique involving pushing a little bit of the kick drum into the sidechain of the bass guitar's comp... So every time the kick beats, the bass ducks out a bit to let it thump...

Anyone ever try that? Is it even possible without using outboard gear? For the life of me, looking at the user-interfaces on my plug-ins, I couldn't even figure out how to do that... Let me know if anyone has had any success with this...

Thanks everybody for sharing your time and your advice... It means a lot to me...

Sean

[Jorge442]

Originally posted by Sean Rathman:
Most of Glen Ballard's (producer) stuff kinda has the kick I'm looking for...

In the studio I will use compression on the kick... Usually I'll use the Waves Rennaissance Comp set at about 5:1 with a relatively fast attack (usually 12ms) and likewise a fast release (about 80ms).

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi Sean,

first, I`m no GURU, so you`re welcome to ignore my post.

I think most of Glenn`s stuff is triggered/sampled.

I use the D4 when I need a deep yet tight kik in metal bands....

Fast attack on the compressor will kill your kik, you need to set it to medium/slow, this way the initial attack gets through.

my 2 cents

jorge

[nate b]

to all of you, first off, don't assume you are the all powerful producer capable of creating the perfect sound from p.o.s. model drums - tama included.(cheers for my Yamaha Recording Customs)you cannot get blood from a stone, you're attempting alchemy here.

the biggest lesson I had to teach an engineer at the studio a few months back was that his mic placement and eq's are not always the answer. physical changes on the DRUM are most likely to solve your issues. a good drummer will let you know that you can get a lot more out of a drum than many engineers could ever comprehend.

changing the batter head of the bass drum, the beater on the bass drum pedal, muffling on the front, muffling on the back will get you the kinds of ring that your after. get a mic close to the beater. stay away from that crappy 112.

the Carter Beauford sound comes from a 24 inch kick - a rarity in this instrument.

Dave Garibaldi plays with a 22*16. thats where his snap comes from.

geometry of drums is very important.

muffle that drum all over. if not using a shallow bass, like below 18 inches, remove the front head to kill the overtones. use a solid beater with no felt on a 2 ply muffled head, like an evans g3. that will kill everything tonally.

just like autotune can only do so much for Enrique Eglasias, EQ and the best mics will only do so much for your drums.

in Funk and Love,
nate B.