Done.

[YYR123]

Well bill it seems there is more to life than just rockin....I understood about nil of what you said....but that's cool too

[Bill Denton]

Originally Posted by LDS

Yeah, my experience has been the same. Unless you have a pressing need to put your avid artists on your LAN I don't see the point under OSX. I haven't networked a PC in years, but I remember it as a much more complex process.

Ethernet port with static IP -> Switch -> Avid controllers with static IPs ironed out pretty much all of my issues.

WAN/LAN/NAS/Printer is connected via wifi. The only way I could rationalise adding EuCon to this network is if it were a multi-studio facility that required multiroom access to EuCon. Other than that, I can't justify laying the CAT5 cable.

Swings and roundabouts really. As long as it works!


If you could let us know what switch you are using C52382P, that would be handy.

I would be inclined to strip everything back for the sake of narrowing down the problem.

- Disconnect your Airport Extreme.
- Disable your airport connection.
- Delete you existing network connections in OSX.
- Connect your controllers to your switch.
- Connect your switch to your ethernet port on your mac.
- Disable your ethernet port's DHCP and manually set the IP to 192.169.2.1
- Disable DHCP on your controllers and set their IPs respectively to:
1. 192.169.2.102
2. 192.169.2.103
3. 192.169.2.104
4. 102.169.2.105
- Restart your system and see if your controllers work any better.


If they do, you could try reenabling your wifi/internet as long as it is on a different IP address. Usually the Airport Extreme runs on a default IP of 10.0.1.1.

If they aren't working better after the restart, perhaps try disabling 3 of the surfaces to see if you can get one to work properly. If you still can't do it using the switch, connect a control surface straight to your mac via ethernet and try it again. If that doesn't work, try creating a new OSX user and see if it works under that.

You may have already tried all this, but it will hopefully help narrow down if there is a conflict somewhere.

- Disable your ethernet port's DHCP and manually set the IP to 192.169.2.1
- Disable DHCP on your controllers and set their IPs respectively to:
1. 192.169.2.102
2. 192.169.2.103
3. 192.169.2.104
4. 102.169.2.105

No NO NO! DO NOT DO THIS!

IP addresses are not just some numbers grabbed out of thin air!

Since I'm doing this for free, I'm not going to do a Network 101...but I will tell you what you need to know, which means this is a very simplified explanation.

In home and smaller business networks, there is no need for individual computers to directly connect with the Internet. So, we use a router. One side of the router is connected to the Internet, while the other side is connected to the "home" network (Local Area Network, or LAN). When you enter something like www.billdenton.com in your web browser, that address is sent over the LAN to the router, which actually sends the request under its own address to the Internet. www.billdenton.com then sends a page back to the router's address, and the router passes the page over the LAN back to the computer that requested it.

As you can see, the router is connected to two networks: the Internet, and the LAN (or "home" network).

On the Internet side, the router uses what is called a "routable" IP address, which means traffic from that address can move freely through the various routers that are a part of the Internet.

On the LAN side, the router uses a "non-routable" IP address. Computers on the LAN also use "non-routable" IP addresses, which can only connect with the router (or other devices using an address on the same "non-routable" network).

Now, as to why I'm "beating up" on the poor OP...

There are three "ranges" of non-routable IP addresses...the one most commonly used on home and other small LANs is: 192.168.0.0 - 192.168.255.255. This allows for 256 separate networks, each with 256 devices. Note the first part of this address: 192.168, you MUST use these numbers, as these numbers will never go through the router.

The OP is using, 192.169, which is outside the non-routable range which can cause problems on a LAN.

If for some reason your router has a 10. or a 172.16 - 172.31 LAN side address, these are also non-routable address ranges and are okay for use on LANs.

If you are going to have a "closed network", where your computer is connected to a switch, your Eucon units are connected to the switch, nothing else is connected to the switch, and your computer is not connected to any other networks, wired or wireless, you could theoretically use any addresses you wanted to, but that is a really bad idea...use one of the 192.168. addresses. If you are going to use a "separate" network, which is the same as a "closed" network except the computer is also connected to the internet, either wired, or wireless you would want to use a different network number for the "Eucon network" from the one used by your router.

The format for IP addresses is: 192.168.network.computer (or other network device). So, if your router uses the fairly common 192.168.1.computer network, use 192.168.2.computer for your Eucon network.

As you might have discerned, networking is a very complex and unique subject, which is why network guys make a ton of money.

So, you've really got two choices...if you're a computer geek, you should know all of this already. If your eyes are glazed over, the 3rd or 4th year computer science guys at your local university can be a source of cheap labor...

[Bill Denton]

Originally Posted by YYR123

Well bill it seems there is more to life than just rockin....I understood about nil of what you said....but that's cool too

Don't feel bad, I've been messing with this stuff for a couple of decades as part of my day job...

[LDS]

Originally Posted by Bill Denton

- Disable your ethernet port's DHCP and manually set the IP to 192.169.2.1
- Disable DHCP on your controllers and set their IPs respectively to:
1. 192.169.2.102
2. 192.169.2.103
3. 192.169.2.104
4. 102.169.2.105

No NO NO! DO NOT DO THIS!

IP addresses are not just some numbers grabbed out of thin air!

Since I'm doing this for free, I'm not going to do a Network 101...but I will tell you what you need to know, which means this is a very simplified explanation.

In home and smaller business networks, there is no need for individual computers to directly connect with the Internet. So, we use a router. One side of the router is connected to the Internet, while the other side is connected to the "home" network (Local Area Network, or LAN). When you enter something like www.billdenton.com in your web browser, that address is sent over the LAN to the router, which actually sends the request under its own address to the Internet. www.billdenton.com then sends a page back to the router's address, and the router passes the page over the LAN back to the computer that requested it.

As you can see, the router is connected to two networks: the Internet, and the LAN (or "home" network).

On the Internet side, the router uses what is called a "routable" IP address, which means traffic from that address can move freely through the various routers that are a part of the Internet.

On the LAN side, the router uses a "non-routable" IP address. Computers on the LAN also use "non-routable" IP addresses, which can only connect with the router (or other devices using an address on the same "non-routable" network).

Now, as to why I'm "beating up" on the poor OP...

There are three "ranges" of non-routable IP addresses...the one most commonly used on home and other small LANs is: 192.168.0.0 - 192.168.255.255. This allows for 256 separate networks, each with 256 devices. Note the first part of this address: 192.168, you MUST use these numbers, as these numbers will never go through the router.

The OP is using, 192.169, which is outside the non-routable range which can cause problems on a LAN.

If for some reason your router has a 10. or a 172.16 - 172.31 LAN side address, these are also non-routable address ranges and are okay for use on LANs.

If you are going to have a "closed network", where your computer is connected to a switch, your Eucon units are connected to the switch, nothing else is connected to the switch, and your computer is not connected to any other networks, wired or wireless, you could theoretically use any addresses you wanted to, but that is a really bad idea...use one of the 192.168. addresses. If you are going to use a "separate" network, which is the same as a "closed" network except the computer is also connected to the internet, either wired, or wireless you would want to use a different network number for the "Eucon network" from the one used by your router.

The format for IP addresses is: 192.168.network.computer (or other network device). So, if your router uses the fairly common 192.168.1.computer network, use 192.168.2.computer for your Eucon network.

As you might have discerned, networking is a very complex and unique subject, which is why network guys make a ton of money.

So, you've really got two choices...if you're a computer geek, you should know all of this already. If your eyes are glazed over, the 3rd or 4th year computer science guys at your local university can be a source of cheap labor...

Argh yes! That is quite erroneous of me.
It's a public IP. :/

[Bill Denton]

Originally Posted by LDS

Argh yes! That is quite erroneous of me.
It's a public IP. :/

No biggie...I'm glad you aren't able to see some of the stuff I've done over the years...

[YYR123]

I don't think that was the point of bill's post.

I think the Takeaway is that we should understand that it's not quite as simple as some of it may seem

On the other hand I do think the procedure that avid gives you on their website for changing the IP addresses is quite straightforward for both Mac and PC

[C52382P]

This all sounds like a bunch of whatevers and whathaveyous, mostly whathaveyous I think.

At the end of the day this is a seriously flawed product and I can handle that I bought a flawed product. It happens. If you read the specs and capabilities that are listed for these units they sound too good to be true and ultimately they are. Things that I mentioned in other posts, the faders on the control unit not having the same scribble strips and being placed the same as the ones on the mix units, the lack of a dedicated RTZ button on the control transport, the terrible placement of the record arm buttons and a few other little things are enough to warrant a serious revision. The software problems are unacceptable though.

Should the end user of a product like this even need to know what an IP address is? This is why guys like me buy macs instead of far cheaper PC's, the mac is the Toyota Landcruiser that "just works" as long as you change the oil every now and again, the PC is the Range Rover that requires its owner be a skilled mechanic and never need to be anywhere on time.

I think at this point it would behoove AVID to make non-tech support related gestures to its client base. Do I feel like I deserve something for free? No, I want AVID or whoever else is making Pro Tools and its related products to survive and thrive. I think a trade in offer would be nice though. As a sign of good faith, after all of these fruitless years, it is clear that AVID cannot make these controllers work correctly and it probably isn't even their fault, they didn't design the damn things after all.

[Bill Denton]

The following stuff will be only my own opinions and "best guess" based on similar situations in different contexts...

The first Eucon boxes were expensive and large consoles/control surfaces that probably went into high-end studios that had someone with networking experience either on staff or on call.

Consequently, the installation would have gone smoothly and everything would have worked as expected.

Then came the very affordable Artist series...

Which resulted in a product with very sophisticated setup requirements being put in the hands of folks without the necessary knowledge to properly setup the product. Couple that with some problems with the Eucon software and a lack of clear instructions and you have a recipe for disaster.

Keep in mind that network technology is way outside what an audio tech guy would be expected to know. And to learn even the basics of network setup requires doing a lot of "glazed eye" reading, making quite a few mistakes, and some more "glazed eye" reading, only to learn about something that is boring as hell for the average audio guy, and that they might never use more than a couple of times in their entire career.

And even if someone does manage to get the right plugs in the right holes, since the Eucon software is flakey, they may not know whether a problem is in the setup they've done or if it's in the Eucon software.

I wish I had some good solutions for either Avid or for users, but I don't. However, here's a couple of suggestions...

Avid should get with Cisco or Linksys to come up with a "goof proof" Avid-branded switch/DHCP server, which would be required for connecting the Artist units.

Avid should require that the Artist series units be on an "exclusive" network, not the network carrying Internet or other traffic.

Avid should provide clear and concise instructions for connecting everything, even down to, "Locate the cable with a red band on either end (picture of cable). Connect this cable to the port labeled 'To Computer' on the Avid switch (picture of port and cable, with arrow showing cable being inserted). Connect the other end of this cable to a network port on your computer (pictures of network ports on both Apple and Windows computers, with arrows pointing to appropriate ports)." The instructions should then show how to set up the DHCP client on both Apple and Windows computers.

Then we come to the million-dollar question...how much can Avid afford to do? In most modern product plans, there are line items for things such as bug fixes, updates, and customer support. If the company "runs out" of money in one category they can sometimes "borrow" money from another category. When there are no funds left in any categories, they start chewing into profits. And when the profit is gone, typically the product is killed off, and some people lose their jobs. I know this sounds harsh, but that's just how things work in business.

But keep in mind I have the same "dollar store" crystal ball as everyone else does...and it's not telling me much these days...

[robertg]

Bill - why do you think it's necessary to segregate eucon traffic to its own LAN? It really isn't. Unless a gigabit network is absolutely saturated, which is a rare case, there is no reason. Eucon isn't much traffic at all.

[RyanC]

IMO it isn't avid's responsibility to make this goof proof any more than the audio side (although an approved router/switch list would be good). IE if a person buys a 192 and db25 fan and tries to plug their mics right into the fan, it's not avids fault...the difference between mic and line level, (and setting fixed IP's) is in the manual.

If people don't want to read the manual and online tech docs to get things set up properly, then hire a tech (who will probably solve the problem by ~gasp~ reading the manual).

The burden of educating users should not be paid for by other users, especially when they are willing to help right here on this forum.

Back to the car analogy, Toyota or Land Rover aren't going to replace the car if you don't change the oil (also in the manual). The owner can either learn enough to do it himself, or hire a professional to do it.

I don't mean to be a jerk here to the OP, but re-installing OSX from scratch multiple times? It sounds to me like it may be time to make use of your local craigslist...

What really baffles me is how someone would expect to get paid as an audio professional and not understand the value of paying other types of professionals when needed.

Sorry for the rant...just saying nobody ever said config for an entire studio was going to be easy.