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  #51  
Old 03-20-2018, 06:41 PM
TNM TNM is offline
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Default Re: Is the i7 8700K processor good enough for PT Native?

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Originally Posted by ejinbc View Post
One of the best current DAW benchmark-based comparisons of CPUs I have seen are here:

https://techreport.com/review/32642/...pu-reviewed/14

and here:

https://techreport.com/review/32607/...us-reviewed/12

This data would suggest that at 64 buffers CPU single thread performance is critical. At higher buffer settings (128) the extra cores pay off.

For low latency performance this data makes it very clear that the 8700K is the way to go UNLESS money is not an issue. From the posted results at 64 buffer the 8700K (O/C) beats the 7960 for VI performance, and equals the 7920 for DSP performance. An 8700K system is much cheaper than the 7960 system - use the difference to buy a good microphone.

All caveats apply. Hope this helps.
they are using Dawbench, tafkat's creation i believe in collaboration with another. He posts results at gearstluz all the time if you're interested in always keeping up to date :)

As you know he uses standardised testing of particular plugins, therefore i recreated similar but with my own plugins that have native aax versions. This is the scenario, on playback, where pro tools beat all other DAWs dramatically. On record, it was different, pro tools got throttled by absolutely everything, 128 buffer helped even things out compared to others. Cubase is amazing at 128.. even at 32 buffer, as I had made a mistake before in my previous tests and had a whole bunch of hidden tracks activated I forgot about lol, i can run 8 VI tracks all armed in Cubase and playing simultaneously, VS zero in pro tools at 32 or 64 buffer.

Windows seems a lot more stable for Pro tools and Vi's at 64 buffer.

8700K is an excellent machine. Pro tools spreads load like nothing I have ever seen on it's playback buffer.. I have said it so many times but I don't think some people get how huge this figure is.. i can get pro tools to 700% cpu usage on it's playback buffer, and it plays back without a hitch...Maximum possible is 800% and no DAW would ever get that close (100% per thread, in my case 8 logical cores). All other DAWs like reaper, S1, Cubase, Logic.. have problems at 500% and above real cpu and 75% ish real core usage.

Pro tools meter showed 90% per core, and real cpu meter istat showed 90% per core. Closest correlation to real meter i have ever seen from any daw.
But it just can't do it at low buffers.

Even on windows it will struggle cause i have done comparison tests on my windows 7 laptop with S1 and Cubase at 64 buffer and they absolutely demolish PT. (only a quad core ivu bridge laptop but tests on the same machine are all relative between DAWs).

So 8700k will allow a lot of power BUT you will still run into roadblocks, say if you have the buffer at 64, and have created a busy project, and somewhere down the line you need to record a new track, audio or VI, but the project is already quite heavy on playback usage with each core. Windows will have the same overload problems as Mac in that scenario, even on a 4.5GHZ steady 8700K.

My friend has a 5GHZ liquid overclock, stable, turbo disabled just 5ghz flat clock rate, and with a moderately heavy project, he could only record a new track (just one track) at 128 buffer, no lower. With RME top shelf hardware.
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  #52  
Old 03-21-2018, 06:53 AM
noiseboyuk noiseboyuk is offline
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Default Re: Is the i7 8700K processor good enough for PT Native?

Thanks for posting, TNM. It takes a while to A/B the two links as they're all entirely different processors, but interesting stuff.

The other time when real time / single core performance is important is when using thirsty VIs (at any buffer). I isolated a bug in Omnisphere at the moment where Granular performance on a PC was massively worse than a Mac - even the best processors can't get more than 7 or so notes of polyphony out of it in Windows, whereas a Mac takes it all in its stride. Spectrasonics say they're working on that for a fix, but in the meantime it highlights that some VIs are extremely demanding CPU-wise (synths in particular). For that, a better single core score will always be helpful.

One other thing that is pertinent to some DAWs such Cubase is that they have modes that reduce the CPU hit on non-live tracks considerably.

In short, here's my takeaway from it all.

Strong single core score:
Better performance on active tracks with demanding plugins
Better performance when using Cubase's AG2
Better performance at very low buffer settings

Strong multi core score:

Better performance on big projects with lots of plugins

For me, I need both and a relatively cool CPU, so the 7820X was my sweet spot. Others may well prioritise one more than another. Purely for audio post, for example, I'd say multicore is much more important than single core. For the 8700K, it has a much improved multicore performance over the 7700K while keeping a great single core score, so its a good choice and runs very cool. As I say, I nearly went for it, it was the limitations of the Z370 chipset that were the main strike against for me.
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  #53  
Old 03-21-2018, 07:44 AM
guitardom guitardom is offline
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Default Re: Is the i7 8700K processor good enough for PT Native?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseboyuk View Post
Is there a chart somewhere with test results? Would love to see.

Risey, have to disagree with much of your advice. I'm pretty wary of the i9s at the moment - thermal performance is very poor, so they're a bad choice for DAW use unless you have a machine room.

I've been testing a bit myself over a new build, and getting Scan in the UK to run some tests for me as well (they've been excellent). Depending on the exact use, both single and multi scores are important for slightly different reasons. For me it would be a bad choice to just go for the most cores, it has to be weighed with clock speed and thermals. I've ended up going for a modestly overclocked 7820X, but the 8700K was a very close second, and indeed betters the 7820X by a small amount in real time tests. In the end the Z270 chipset was more of a factor for me, with poor connectivity. The X299 platform was far superior if you're running a lot of internal drives and I/O.
The 5960x (3.5Ghz) hits about 185 tracks in the dverb test from my link I posted above. The next gen 6900k (4Ghz) averages about 198 tracks in that test. The following gen 7820x hits 213 (at 4Ghz) In comparison, the 8700k hits about 201 tracks on avg at 4.7Ghz. Still amazing to hit over 1000 Dverbs at 64HW buffer for such a cheap processor in comparison to the 8 core series. Look at the results on the first page of the i7 thread. We were giddy to be getting around 300....
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  #54  
Old 03-21-2018, 08:57 AM
noiseboyuk noiseboyuk is offline
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Default Re: Is the i7 8700K processor good enough for PT Native?

Ah ha, found it!

http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=238426

What a thread, would be lovely if there was a master google spreadsheet of results or something. Just checking if this is like-for-like... any efficiency gains when switching from RTAS to AAX or between versions of Pro Tools? Is that jump from 200-1000 all necessarily the pure horse power?

Will do a test on my current 4930k rig and then another when I get the new 7820X.

EDIT - FWIW. the 4930k at stock speed is 82 tracks, 410 instances.
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PT 2024 Ultimate; W11 Pro; Ryzen 9 7900; 64gb RAM; RME Babyface; UAD Quad Satellite USB; GTX 1050i
Macbook Air M2; 24gb RAM

Last edited by noiseboyuk; 03-21-2018 at 09:38 AM.
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  #55  
Old 03-21-2018, 10:20 AM
guitardom guitardom is offline
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Default Re: Is the i7 8700K processor good enough for PT Native?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseboyuk View Post
Ah ha, found it!

http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=238426

What a thread, would be lovely if there was a master google spreadsheet of results or something. Just checking if this is like-for-like... any efficiency gains when switching from RTAS to AAX or between versions of Pro Tools? Is that jump from 200-1000 all necessarily the pure horse power?

Will do a test on my current 4930k rig and then another when I get the new 7820X.

EDIT - FWIW. the 4930k at stock speed is 82 tracks, 410 instances.
I have thought about trying to do something for "public", but it would be a terrible amount of work to setup and upkeep. I just don't have the time. It also lets me rely on myself with results knowing that the systems configurations are the same between them, can get results with the same interface, and know of any variables that may cause fluctuations. So it lets me at least have a comparison to know if systems are running correctly and to help people decide if they think an upgrade is worth it.

There are TONS of variables. There is actually 2 versions of Dverb. The newer version implements some chorusing and such that makes it more intensive. You would see references in that old I7 thread to "old" or "new" Dverb.
Interface drivers is a BIGGIE.
Version of Pro Tools can have some effect.
Obviously bios/system configurations have a major effect. Like the poster above not catching the clocking issues / differences with the systems he is comparing.
Other things running on your system can affect PT.
People also make the mistake of comparing tests with 10 dverbs on a channel or 5 on a channel. This makes a HUGE difference. It has to be consistent. PT handles serial processing (more on a track) far better than parallel processing (more tracks, less dverbs).

The Dverb test has been the standard for basically 20 years here on the DUC for benchmarking systems. I created a second test that is also in that link that I use for a bit more modern and taxing test since the track count is getting so high with Dverb test. So on the Performance test 2 for example, the 8700k (4.7Ghz) hits around 119 tracks and the 7820x (4Ghz) hits around 140 tracks. Just chose those 2 since we were talking about them a bit and the most recent Intel offerings. Also, just note the full turbo speed of the 7820x is 4.5Ghz.
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  #56  
Old 03-21-2018, 10:49 AM
noiseboyuk noiseboyuk is offline
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Default Re: Is the i7 8700K processor good enough for PT Native?

Cheers guitardom. Must be doing something wrong with that 2nd performance test - I get a big fat zero! At a 64 buffer on the 4930k, just that single track gets it into the red, not even record armed. I restarted and deleted every duplicate track, but its not playing ball. Yikes.

EDIT - FWIW seems to be about 45 on a 512 buffer.
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  #57  
Old 03-21-2018, 01:53 PM
spock999 spock999 is offline
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Default Re: Is the i7 8700K processor good enough for PT Native?

Quote:
Originally Posted by risey View Post
I am using an i7 8700k on a Rog Maximus X Formula using texas instrument firewire card for an MBOX Pro 3. Compared to my i75960x its a noticeable downgrade
Hello Can I ask why you change if the 8700K is a downgrade from the i75960x
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  #58  
Old 03-25-2018, 06:07 AM
RyanC RyanC is offline
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Default Re: Is the i7 8700K processor good enough for PT Native?

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Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
There are TONS of variables. There is actually 2 versions of Dverb. The newer version implements some chorusing and such that makes it more intensive. You would see references in that old I7 thread to "old" or "new" Dverb.
Interface drivers is a BIGGIE.
Version of Pro Tools can have some effect.
Obviously bios/system configurations have a major effect. Like the poster above not catching the clocking issues / differences with the systems he is comparing.
Other things running on your system can affect PT.
People also make the mistake of comparing tests with 10 dverbs on a channel or 5 on a channel. This makes a HUGE difference. It has to be consistent. PT handles serial processing (more on a track) far better than parallel processing (more tracks, less dverbs).
Did I read somewhere that you are using Asus boards with TBEX3 AIC? I'm trying to get an X99 A II going alongside a z370 Prime to do a little shootout of my own...I had the X99 system working in the past, but with the newest BIOS I'm having a hard time getting TB working at all (mac or win). On the Z370 it works but the TB doesn't connect on every boot (it probably works 75% of the time). Do you have any insight on BIOS settings for the AIC?

Ultimately these will be setup as hackintoshes, at least until Focusrite release full Win support for the Red interfaces. All my machines (one server and 3 workstations) will ultimately live in a AC controlled cabinet.

I'm comparing these setups with 'stable OC', which for me is 5ghz on the 8700k and 4.5ghz on the 5960x...so far the OC'd 5960x is actually outperforming the 8700k, but I need to get everything working to really compare. Man the 8700k at 5 ghz is SNAPPY though. Also the AVX offset in the z370 bios seems to leave a little overhead for the GUI which is nice.

One thing I'm doing in my benchmark is to put some revibes on some auxes, in my use, this is often the biggest issue with large sessions and low latency tracking...
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  #59  
Old 04-07-2018, 09:44 AM
chrismeraz chrismeraz is offline
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Default Re: Is the i7 8700K processor good enough for PT Native?

Quote:
Originally Posted by risey View Post
In regards to Pro Tools not using all cores efficiently, pull up the USAGE METER on a busy session, notice how there is a triangular patter of usage if you are running 16 cores or 8 physical as I once did, notice how 4 cores are at 0% usage sometimes 2% and yet PT graph claims the overall usage is close to 100% depending on how busy and demanding your session is...
I was able to improve that by disabling C-States and Hyperthreading in BIOS. Now the core usage is nearly even across the board.
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  #60  
Old 04-07-2018, 09:50 AM
chrismeraz chrismeraz is offline
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Default Re: Is the i7 8700K processor good enough for PT Native?

Well guys, I just created a monster! My new rig is up and running:
  • 8700K processor
  • AUS Z370-A mobo
  • 32GB RAM
  • 2 NVMe drives
I can record and monitor at 96k and 64 samples of buffer after performing all the normal optimizations, plus the following three:
  • Disable all wifi adapters
  • Disable C-States
  • Disable Hyperthreading

The weird thing is that latency is up at 44ms, about ten times higher than I expected!
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