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  #11  
Old 02-03-2001, 07:54 PM
dcornutt dcornutt is offline
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Part 2:

Have the "curve" function dialog box..to play and loop the selected measures in realtime. Drag the curve...hear the results.

Then..use the same principal for a "groove" quantize function. Here..a slider..select the quantize function..the selected bars loop and play...as you drag the slider..you hear the results of the quantize. If no bars are selected..it loops the first few bars from the beginning.

Lastly...I'd love to see some notation in PTle as well. However...at least for now..Im finding the export/import midi..is bringing in my tempo maps..etc..from my notation package..so its workable at least. Theres just no way to work with it after you get it into PTle.

If I could bring in a standard midi file from my notation package..with tempo maps..then..adjust the tempo changes..with curves..in PT..groove quantize it..assign the samples/voices..and ..its good to go.

Also..Id like to see an "overlap" function. Such as..overlap all the notes by x amount.

I have to do this alot when working with string samples.

Finally..if your gonna keep the one window scroll and zoom midi editing...at least have the data center itself..as it goes by. (I think 5.1 may have this?)

Or..options for selecting zoom level..by..one measure, 2 measures, 4 measures..and or..by "region".


dcornutt
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  #12  
Old 02-03-2001, 11:44 PM
sv_guy sv_guy is offline
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Yes, put a multi track step note editor just like Studio Vision and Digital Performer. It's annoying to make the track size taller then having to use the up down arrows to find your midi notes. Maybe if the midi notes were view by default in the region mode, then we could double click on it and get a friendly pop step note editor window like those found in Master Tracks Pro, Studio Vision and Digital Performer. That would sweet.
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  #13  
Old 02-04-2001, 10:17 AM
beggehorn beggehorn is offline
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I recently worked with an orchestral arranger on a project in which all the parts were recorded "live" on a keyboard rather than using midi. The issue of gradual tempo changes was one of the factors that kept him from using the midi features. To add to the suggestions, how about a "tap tempo" feature in which you could "punch in" on a selected area/region and manually tap/conduct the desired change, which would then be written to the conductor track?
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  #14  
Old 02-04-2001, 03:19 PM
petter petter is offline
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I am doing most editing in the notation window.....(????)...../P.

Atari, C-lab Notator.
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  #15  
Old 02-05-2001, 01:57 AM
dcornutt dcornutt is offline
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Absolutely beggehorn!

As to notation in sequencers:

Ill just say..in my experience..it is convienient to have some sort of notation in a sequencer..but..after years of using it..Im against it..and Ill tell you why.

To me..what Ive found is..they are 2 different animals..with 2 different needs.

The fact is..that there is no way for a built in notation package into a sequencer to have the tools..speed..and workspace of a dedicated notation package.

Second is..when you get your midi sounding right in your sequencer...aka..groove quantize..note overlap..etc...it really screws up the midi engine in the notation portion (you end up with all these 16ths..etc..tied over..trying to map out those adjustments you made to get the midi sounding..."natural".

What your left with then..is having to save out a 2nd copy of your file..and unquantize it..etc..and clean it up..using..the limited tools of a built in notation window in your sequencer. Its time consuming..and not as easy as using a full on notation package such as finale, sibielus..etc..

Since..I think its quite obvious..that youll never see the same amount of features that you can get in a dedicated notation package inside a sequencer, the better way to deal with this..is thru midi import/export from a notation package..to sequcner..and visa versa.

After you get done with your sequence..and have recorded it..save a 2nd copy..and quantize everything to "straighten it up" so the notation package won't generate so many tied 16th and 32nd notes.

Then..export the midi file..and import it into your notation package. Now you have a very good starting point..to make a decent chart..with out as much clean up. Plus..you have a much faster way of working..in your dedicated notation package..and many more options for making nice charts.

You can work the other way as well...compose in your notation package. Export this as midi file..drag and drop into PTle..then..adjust it for performance..etc.

I have to say..as much as I like a notation window...I found that the even the best notation in sequencers..such as Logic..pales in comparison to full featured programs..and..as amazing as they are..they don't generate accurate parts.

I think waht Im trying to say is..that..in my experience..what you need to record..play..etc..and lay down to tracks..may be very different ..from waht needs to be "printed" to make an accurate, well written part. Further..having to clean up those parts..using limited tools..only slows the whole process down. And lastly..
Youll be using a duplicate sequence to do this and quantizing to get accurate parts..at that point..the one additional step of export/importing a midi file..over to a dedicated notation package..is a minimal hassle compared to trying to work with in a sequencers limited tools.

Not to mention the added clutter to the DAW's interface.

While I do understand and appreciate the need for good notation...after using the notation functions of logic, DP and vision..I have come full circle to realize..that what a sequencer needs to do..and what a notation package needs to do..are 2 speparate things..and while there is some overlap..they should not be mixed.

That said..it is a good visual reference for those of us who compose on pencil and paper..for harmony..etc. It sort of ties all the tracks together in a score window..to see all the tracks..lined up in the staffs.

But..given my druthers..I'd rather see the midi performance tools..such as tempo map editor..groove quantize..etc..before I would want to see a notation window.

Thats must my own personal experience.

dcornutt

[This message has been edited by dcornutt (edited February 04, 2001).]
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  #16  
Old 02-05-2001, 06:54 PM
Lee Blaske Lee Blaske is offline
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dcornutt,

You know, the notation in Logic isn't half bad, but in general, I agree with your sentiments.

I think having good notation in Logic actually bogs the evolution of the application down. For instance, I would dearly love to once again have the multiple tempo map subsequence architecture of Studio Vision Pro. It was way ahead of its time, and there isn't anything like it on the market anymore. I'm hoping that Digi implements it when they do their big MIDI makeover (and also adding a hierarchical bin/folder/subsequence scheme.

Even though Logic has decent scoring capabilities, I much prefer using Finale, which is an absolutely fantastic piece of software. I do a rough sketch in Logic, and then copy part by part - section by section into Finale. I find it's faster than wasting a lot of time cleaning up files in Logic. Playing samplers to get a convincing performance is totally different from entering data for live performers.

So, I guess I'm saying it would be nice to have notation display within Pro Tools, but I don't think we need a full-blown score application.

Here's what I think *should* happen:

Digidesign has enough irons in the fire. Rather than re-invent the wheel, I think they should partner with Coda for their notation needs. Coda could design a notation plug-in that would function well for basic editing purposes within PT. What would really make this wonderful, however, would be if exporting to Finale for further editing was an extremely painless procedure.

I think those of us who are seriously into scoring would go nuts over something like this.

Lee Blaske
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  #17  
Old 02-05-2001, 06:55 PM
Lee Blaske Lee Blaske is offline
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dcornutt,

You know, the notation in Logic isn't half bad, but in general, I agree with your sentiments.

I think having good notation in Logic actually bogs the evolution of the application down. For instance, I would dearly love to once again have the multiple tempo map subsequence architecture of Studio Vision Pro. It was way ahead of its time, and there isn't anything like it on the market anymore. I'm hoping that Digi implements it when they do their big MIDI makeover (and also adding a hierarchical bin/folder/subsequence scheme.

Even though Logic has decent scoring capabilities, I much prefer using Finale, which is an absolutely fantastic piece of software. I do a rough sketch in Logic, and then copy part by part - section by section into Finale. I find it's faster than wasting a lot of time cleaning up files in Logic. Playing samplers to get a convincing performance is totally different from entering data for live performers.

So, I guess I'm saying it would be nice to have notation display within Pro Tools, but I don't think we need a full-blown score application.

Here's what I think *should* happen:

Digidesign has enough irons in the fire. Rather than re-invent the wheel, I think they should partner with Coda for their notation needs. Coda could design a notation plug-in that would function well for basic editing purposes within PT. What would really make this wonderful, however, would be if exporting to Finale for further editing was an extremely painless procedure.

I think those of us who are seriously into scoring would go nuts over something like this.

Lee Blaske
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  #18  
Old 02-05-2001, 07:31 PM
mike connelly mike connelly is offline
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The notation in Logic works great! I've never had problems getting files that sound good and have correct notation as well - if you've had trouble, you probably don't understand the features well enough.

I'd love to see notation editing in ProTools (at least on a basic level like Logic has) - not to print out full scores (I'll probably always use finale for that), but to at least be able to see the representation of the music.


Mike
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  #19  
Old 02-06-2001, 11:01 AM
dcornutt dcornutt is offline
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Yes,
Studio Vision is still sorely missed in some respects...esp..the subsequence as noted.

I do find that the "regions" concept in PTle..does work quite well..for making subsequences..they just aren't called.."sub sequences".

Mike,
I agree with you on a basic level. I did find the notation tools in Logic..to be "the best" out of all the DAW's/sequencers. However..as you noted..its not finale..etc.

I didin't have any problem using the scoring tools in Logic. I understand them..down to assigning midi events to symbols..etc.

I also find being able to take a quick look at the "score" to see parts lined up vertically to be a useful tool.

The key word here is "score". In this regard..its the stacked score that is most usefull for harmony..etc..and it is this view..which lacks the power and tools of a program like finale.

Having a limited "strip" view of a part..doesn't really give me much feedback.

I realize Logic "does" score view..and I appreciate the fact..that its scoring is far ahead of other packages..but..even as you admit..its not a full blown notation app.

Most sequencers do a "decent" job of making parts..and..Logic in particular..looks quite nice. But..in the scheme of things..I think I'd rather see..the tempo map tools, groove quantize..etc..and updates to OMS (or something else) as well as a better "view" for editing midi..before I personally would be pushing for score tools in Ptle.

I did like the idea mentioned earlier of having a plugin ..to tie in a seperate notation package.

I do agree..that Logics implimentation of notation is at least...Useable.

Depending on what Im writing..most sequencers do an ok job of tracking it..and..scoring it.
Actually..truth be known..I found DP's scoring module to be the most accurate engine for tracking midi. However..it probably has the least amount of tools..totally unuseable.

Logic has a good engine too. But..when you start overlapping ends/starts of notes..and heavily quantizing..etc..it starts to go south..and starts tieing lots of 16ths..etc..together. It also misses a lot of basic spellings..etc...using strange combos of accidentals..etc. (I realize this is somewhat configurable).

While Logic has a nice set of basic notation tools (and a few advanced ones as well)...going into fix wrong note spellings..etc..ties..is much more time consuming in Logic than it is..in say..Finale. If you don't care that your D flat is written as C sharp..or B double sharp..then..its not an issue. But..sometimes..a correct part calls for correct enharmonic spelling. Or..alternatively..it calls for rhythyms to be written..in a different manner.

For instance..swing eighths. When you use a swing groove on eighths..most notation packages simply record them as eights..or..a weird combo of rhythyms. In most "jazz" charts..straight eights are always "interperated" to a swing feel. But..if you are writing for orchestra..you have to spell it out. That means...eighth triplets..with the first two tied. Otherwise..youll get any number of variations from the musicians..as to "how" to interpert the eighths...from straight..to ..not so straight .

If you had to convert 120 or so bars..of straight eighth notation..to triplets..(the first note of the eightth doubled)..then tied..which program would you rather use? Logic? or Finale?

The end result was..I always end up..just quantizing the start of notes to a grid..and..exporting a midi file to bring into a notation package and work from there.

Its always been much faster ..for me anyway..to deal with the part here.

Thats my own experience anyway..and i realize everyone has different needs. I also understand that just because Finale is better than Logic at scoring..doesn't mean that a "score" notation function isn't usefull in some manner in a sequencer.

I've just found..for my own purposes..that other than a quick glance at a conductors score..everything else is faster..and better in a notation package.
Not to mention..things like chord symbols..tablature..etc.


But..thats what were here for! Keep posting those requests..and ideas!

dcornutt

[This message has been edited by dcornutt (edited February 06, 2001).]
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  #20  
Old 02-07-2001, 09:49 AM
mike connelly mike connelly is offline
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I guess this is the simplest way I can explain my need for notation editing:

Can you look at a piano roll editor and tell that a chord is a C7#9b13?


Mike
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