Commercials at -24 LKFS - Anyone there yet?

[milosziv]

Just wondering if anyone has been mixing commercials to -24 lkfs spec yet - and/or if they're finding them to be competitive on the air... I'm still frequently sending mixes off at -20 LeqA - and I'm seeing lots of mixes from post houses here in LA that are hitting as high as -17 LeqA... What do you guys think - stay at -20 LeqA - or start turning my mixes down almost 7db to get to that -24 lkfs spec...

[lexaudio]

Might want to look up C.A.L.M

The broadcast levels of commercials are changing. Not sure when, but sometime soon commercials will not be allowed to air as loud as -17.

I think they will all be in the -24. +/-2 range.

[milosziv]

Definitely aware of CALM - but also aware of the Dolby DP600 program optimizer... They're basically changing our mixes anyway.

I think broadcasters are more worried about CALM than mixers are.

Anyway - I just wanted to say that I've seen one mix at -24lkfs translate well on air, and I've seen many mixes at -17 LeqA translate well also... I know I'm opening up a can of worms here - but I just want to hear from a lot of you mixers out there. Anyone find their -24lkfs stuff sounded quite too low on air? Any of you who mix to -17 leqA find you mixes were to squashed on air? Let's build an honest consensus here. Any of you still relying on +3VU, or 6 PPM, or DIN? Everyone knows what you're "supposed" to be doing...but nobody does it. Mixing to an RMS spec that is like flossing after every meal...we should all be doing it...but......

[Audio_Vision]

While attenuating your mix 7 dB may put you somewhere near to +/- 2 dB of a -24 lkfs long term measurement, Leq(A) has no correlation to LKFS. The CALM act will eventually change things, so working with a ITU 1770 compliant meter now will probably serve you well. There are plenty of software/plugin and hardware options now.

[milosziv]

Okay. So let the record state that both of you mix your commercials to -24LKFS +/- 2 db? If so, my question to you is still: how have your results been on TV thusfar? Any stations where it's been a little too quiet?

I get the feeling nobody wants to tell..

Please, I know about the CALM act and -24lkfs. I have meters. I own the Dolby Media meter... It means nothing. Not in commercials. Not yet. Not around most studios here in LA. I get the feeling that broadcasters aren't worrying about it because they're buying Dolby DP600 boxes to cover themselves no matter what mix you hand them....

To this day, RMS specs mean next to nothing to broadcasters. Often they only care about peaks - and that discussion has been beaten to death. Peaks at -8dbfs on most networks, -10dbfs on others... while I've been told by one mixer at a HUGE mix house here in LA they would push it all the way up to -6dbfs - and get away with it! I've worked with these people. I frown upon the loudness war too...but lets help each other here... As long as our mixes are gonna get readjusted anyway...

So my fellow mixers - lets discuss what AVERAGE levels you mix to, and how it worked out on TV. I don't care if you answer in LKFS/LeqA/LeqM/DIN/PPM/VU/ etc.. Let's just get the dialogue going! (pun intended )

We often mix to -20 LeqA +/- 2db. Our mixes generally mean that hit's between -16LKFS and -20LKFS. Peaks at -8dbfs, or the occasional -10dbfs for disney and some others. Oftentimes our mixes are fine at an LeqA averaging -20 - sometimes they're low, sometimes they're hot - but on average, fine. FYI - this is usually -17LKFS - 7db hotter than this "CALM" act.

Please no specs on TV shows for Discovery, A&E, etc...we all know they have strict specs.

Anyone else out there?

Thank you in advance to any of you with your candid replies.

[diamondschwin]

I do a lot of mixes for Versus Network on air promotions, which hasn't ever provided me a spec. Recently Comcast, Versus parent company, acquired NBC. now the networks are cross promoting and I got hit with the NBC commercial and on air guidelines which spec -24LKFS +/- 2 and they state starting now they are correcting any material they receive to meet that standard, since my mixes are coming from in house ( VS and NBC being in bed with eachother now) I thought it was best to deliver to NBC specs as to not stir up any trouble. I haven't seen the spots on air yet but I hope they are leveling all material to -24 or mine will surely feel quiet.

[EarHole]

OK, I'm new to the LKFS game. When I get a spec of -24 LKFS.... I've delivered the infinite LKFS reading at that target.... Is that correct?

Also, I've never received a +2/-2 notation. Does that mean the meter should not drop more than 2 or jump higher than 2? Seems as though that would kill a spot with 10 seconds of ambience at the head. I thought the whole advantage of LKFS was to allow more dynamic range , less brick-walling, into the mixes while maintaining a consistent average from program, or spot, to program.

[milosziv]

Thank you guys for chiming in.

Diamond - I'm w/ you on both counts - not stirring up trouble - and hopes that they're managing all mixes to be near each other. Like I said, I recently worked w/ a guy who mixed a spot to -24LKFS, and I see it on the air all the time - no quieter or louder than the spots before/after it... I'm hoping you've seen one of your mixes on air by now? Anything to report? You ever notice one station that really seemed to drop the ball and air it too low?

Earhole - by +/- 2db I definitely mean infinite measurement - as nobody seems to care about short term readings regarding LKFS... Yes, if you had a spot w/ 10 seconds amb, it'd be hard to get that number around -24 - but at the same time - you CAN be lower. I don't think any spec ever meant to tell you how quiet you can mix - just how loud....

Thanks guys. Any others?

[HD2]

Originally Posted by milosziv

I think broadcasters are more worried about CALM than mixers are.

Don't remember reading anywhere that mixers could face possible fines so I guess it should be the broadcasters who are more worried.

[rhumphries]

I mixed a promo a while back to -25 as per the spec I was given (lm100, not LKFS) and it was completely drowned out by the preceding and following commercials. Some time later I mixed another commercial at -24 (it wasn't a wall to wall VO and R&R spot) and I had the client complain that it was quiet on air. Since then I've been mixing to somewhere between -22 and -20 and I have not been disappointed. I wouldn't say my mixes are the loudest on air, but they feel comfortable compared to the surrounding spots.

-R