Latency HDX vs TDM?

[DAWgEAR]

Shane, thanks for your understanding and support. As you mention, many people do not understand this request and dismiss it. The fact that you acknowledge the validity of such a request is appreciated.

[nst7]

One thing I have to say using HD Native, is that there seems to be less latency with VI's vs. my old 003, etc. Maybe it's the faster conversion of the HD interfaces, or the fact that with VI's, you're only dealing with D/A, not both A/D and D/A. But I'll be messing around with playing some VI's, and then realize I was on a 1024 buffer, but hadn't really noticed that much. Whereas before it was much more obvious.

So there might be something going on under the hood that I don't know about.

[DUCHUNTER]

Originally Posted by studiostuff

So in PT HD TDM we had no latency when recording, isn't that correct?

Is "no latency" still a feature of PT HD? Non-HD PT is advertised to have "low latency", which is very nice.

But my question is about PT HD w/HDX hardware... still "NO latency"?

HDX latency is slightly higher than TDM (IF using the same interface), but essentially the same concept and usefulness as its older counterpart. Definitely superior latency to Native.

[nigelpry]

Thanks for this informative thread ... yes us hobbyist whiners are human beings with manners too ... amazing isn't it ;-)

As I use a lot of VI in some sessions I have always doubted how much benefit upgrading to HD hardware would be for me, even if I could afford it. Thanks for clearing that doubt up.

[zakco]

Originally Posted by Carl Kolchak

Just thought I'd mention this here, as inevitably whenever I've mentioned it in previous threads, there is so much off topic ranting going on that it gets lost in all the noise (as has already happened with the current thread on the issue).


Anyway, for automatic input muting in Pro Tools, all you have to do is make sure input monitoring is set to "Auto", and do the following :

1. Insert a compressor on your recording tracks (Dynamics III, or any compressor with a side chain).

2. Activate the side chain, and set it to the same hardware input as the track it is on (i.e. track is receiving a signal from hardware input 4, set the compressor on that channel's side chain input to hardware input 4).

3. Set the compressor threshold all the way down low.

Job done!

Set and forget!

All input signals are automatically muted.

All playback is unaffected by the compressor, and plays as normal.

It's more flexible (should you need it to be) than mute-tone, more stable than mute-tone, equally as simple and unobtrusive as mute-tone, and as it's already part of Pro Tools, it doesn't require any installation / wont become obsolete or incompatible.

Hope that helps.

That is a good workaround and will solve the problem for many folks, but unless I'm misunderstanding, there is one big difference between this and the abilility to disable input monitoring though.

With this scenario, isn't the playback channel muted everytime the player makes a noise. This means the player can't "sing into the punch" if you know what I mean, which makes if far less useful to me than the "input path is always on" status that the users of every other DAW get to enjoy. It is the one nagging thing that that I still miss from my Cubase/Motu/Console days way back when...

[upscaps]

Originally Posted by DUCHUNTER

HDX latency is slightly higher than TDM (IF using the same interface), but essentially the same concept and usefulness as its older counterpart. Definitely superior latency to Native.

Not according the the chart above. How did you arrive at this conclusion?

[Mista Min]

Originally Posted by upscaps

Not according the the chart above. How did you arrive at this conclusion?

The HD TDM system is running a 192 while the HDX an Native systems are running the HD IO's. A TDM system with an HD IO score lower latency than the HDX system. There was a chart that displayed those numbers before HDX came out, but after it came out the 192's were coupled with the TDM rigs because that was the way the systems were sold.

[studiostuff]

Originally Posted by DUCHUNTER

HDX latency is slightly higher than TDM (IF using the same interface), but essentially the same concept and usefulness as its older counterpart. Definitely superior latency to Native.

Thanks for answering the question!

[Carl Kolchak]

Originally Posted by zakco

That is a good workaround and will solve the problem for many folks, but unless I'm misunderstanding, there is one big difference between this and the abilility to disable input monitoring though.

With this scenario, isn't the playback channel muted everytime the player makes a noise. This means the player can't "sing into the punch" if you know what I mean, which makes if far less useful to me than the "input path is always on" status that the users of every other DAW get to enjoy. It is the one nagging thing that that I still miss from my Cubase/Motu/Console days way back when...

Are you saying that while overdubbing material on the same track, the singer wants to hear the original track material during pre-roll, join in and hear both their live vocal, and the original track source material at the same time, and then at the punch point, the original track material is replaced by the live input?

The best way to do that would be to set up the record track as I've suggested (assuming the reason you are trying to mute live input, is because you are monitoring the input directly through either a mixing desk, or 3rd party interface's built in DSP mixer, and you don't want to hear the delayed input signal from Pro Tools), and have a playback only track that you move the overdubs on to.

By having a dedicated playback track, and a dedicated record track, you can set up "pre-roll" & "post-roll" material however you or the performer like, deleting the portions that are to be overdubbed (assuming you don't want to hear that material too), and then cut and paste the new recording in to the playback track.

That really is the best way to achieve what you seem to be asking.

Another potential advantage of the input compressor that I suggested, is that if you like, you can set it to just lower the level of the original material (and of course the live input), rather than muting it completely when live input is present.

In my experience, most performers want the original source material to be silenced the moment they join in during pre-roll, which as you rightly observed, is what happens with my compressor method. But if you do wish to hear the previous material, the 2 track method is by far the best, and far superior to using an Aux to monitor live input.

I'm not sure if your specific requirements (as I seem to be interpreting them) are not somewhat different from what many people are after with regards to input muting, and I have to admit I'm a little confused by the fact that you say you want 'the abilility to disable input monitoring', but a moment later say you want 'the "input path is always on" status that the users of every other DAW get to enjoy'.

Those two things are the polar opposite of one another, and Pro Tools has the latter feature :

If you have input monitoring set to "Auto" (which is what you would want for overdubs, and using the input compressor method I outlined) you will hear the original track source material during pre-roll / post-roll, but when the punch point is reached it will automatically switch over to live input.

If you have input monitoring set to "Input Only" (which is what you want when setting levels, and recording your first takes, and can be used for overdubs if the performer does not need to reference their previous take), you will only hear live input, even if there is pre-existing track material during pre-roll, and even if the transport is stopped.

These are both entirely different from input muting (which is what my input compressor method is achieving).

The reason most people want input muting, is because if you are monitoring a live source direct (either through a mixing desk, or via a 3rd party interface's built in DSP mixer) in conjunction with playback from the DAW, the last thing you want to do is also hear the live input within the DAW, as not only does it increase the volume, most importantly of all it is subject to latency, which is completely off putting for the performer.

It almost sounds like what you are trying to achieve is a combination of "Auto" input monitoring mode, but always be able to hear the live input, as per "Input Only" input monitoring mode.

I hope I've understood you correctly, and suitably answered your question.

Cheers!

[zakco]

Wow Carl, That's a lot of typing!

While I appreciate all the time it took you to explain that in detail, I'm completely aware of these various workarounds and the cost/benefit of each. While the end result is very much what I'm describing, it's a very complicated and cumbersome way to do what is so utterly simple in every platform other than pro tools.

Another big advantage to the "always on" monitoring scenario (That is not often mentioned) is the ability to communicate with talent in the other room even when the session is not open or a track is being input monitored. This drove me absolutely crazy when I first switched to ProTools and though I've come to get used to it I still remember how nice it was To be able to close a session without the players losing their cue mix...just like the old days with a console. So simple yet unavailable in ProTools