List of Trouble Issues.

[TwoPort]

I've had a few unusual issues come up in the past couple weeks....

A. Clock Error On Startup of FOH

On boot up of the FOH I've had a crazy scarey message that there is a clock error and it cannot start and "what shall we do next"... It offers to shut down, restart, and a test. Unfortunately I haven't followed exactly a scientific method of fixing it because I thought I was going to die when I saw it at the gig setup. (Now 3 times)

Shutting everything down and starting over has seemed to solve the problem but since I don't know what caused it ....


To make a long story short, I'll just say that I now think I was just failing to turn the devices on in the correct sequence. And maybe it worked enough times doing it in the wrong sequence that I thought I was OK... I need an idiot hit in the head for it but help me to understand if it is the cause... What I was doing for the turning ON sequence was:

1. Console
2. FOH (D-Show)
3. Stage
4. Pro Tools.

Yesterday I had it back in tech and I carefully hooked everything up, etc. And followed the above incorrect order and it returned the same software error. (Time to read the book again!) I followed the correct sequence, [Console, Stage, FOH, Pro Tools) and it was fine.

But could it be a different issue that's at work? This is an issue I must resolve...

B. Fader 23 "Sticking"

Last 5 times I've had the board out (usually) when I switch to the second group of faders it returns an error stating that Fader 23 is stuck. But the fader does not appear to be stuck as it is in synch with the other ones. Nothing blocking it - just returns an error.

I select reset and it's fine. But now that it seems to occur all the time I'm wondering what might be the problem - since it happens each time I use the board. (Not each time I switch to the second fader bank, but just once each night...)

C. FOH Console Cable

Seems this thing really likes connecting to one specific plug vs. the other. Both ends are supposed to connect the same way so it doesn't matter which end is which?? Just want to make sure.

D. Aviom Channel Bleed

I'm having a strange issue with respect to aviom channels bleeding into the aviom master output (on the unit) when they have zero volume. Here's how it happened:

The drummer is on aviom 1&2 with a stereo mix. It is no doubt a hot mix and he runs it through his headphones and 2 Clark throne slammers. (No red lights on the Console or the Aviom Card) I happened to be playing bass this night... I had the drum mix volume all the way down but thought I could hear the snare and kick bleeding into my aviom main output and it had a sound like it was bleeding through a gate - like loud crosstalk.

At first I thought the bussing must be wrong. We're running the aviom from the 16 aux sends. Finally at the end of the night I turned down every individual volume channel on the aviom to zero... all 16 of them! And sure enough I could hear the kick and snare pushing through like some crosstalk - but much louder... Dang!

My master volume on the aviom was about 2pm. Of course when I turned the master down to about 11am the drum crosstalk virtually went away.

But.... it brings up the issue.... how much separation (or whatever it is technically called) is there with the Digi/Aviom card and has anybody else had that experience? The problem was that I was maxed out on the individual channel volume of a couple channels (me and the click who are best friends) and so I had to get the master volume that loud to get in the right zone.

Maybe the signal was not hot enough for everything else and it's accentuating an issue that would be almost not otherwise be noticed?

Which brings up sort of a sub point - do you mix the avioms if they are going to aux at "zero"? That's what we set out to do but I think many of the channels are about half way to zero on the meters which might be too quiet and not give the aviom enough to work with...

[DigiFieldService]

A. Power-up/down sequence should not cause this error. The system is telling you that the innermost Mix Engine is not able to receive clock from the Snake board (the one with all of the BNC's). A few questions:

When this error comes up are the Snake board lights flashing? If so, what color and sequence?

Does this seem to happen on the first startup of the day? Could it be temperature related?

B. Sounds like the fader is failing. You could try to swap positions with another fader to see if the problem follows the fader or the position (it could be the fader motor controller underneath).

C. It should work both ways.

D. The crosstalk is most likely within the controller itself, as the signals sent from the A-Net Output card are all digital. Try muting the channels instead of just turning them down.

-Rich

[emluper]

I gotta say, as a 5-stringer myself (F-Bass BN5) I had a HUGE problem with Aviom, which is why I moved to PQ. The whole system couldn't take my B-string, it was always crunching out like I was using a Tube Screamer (which would be fine if I WAS using a Tube Screamer). The thing that I've found is that Aviom is very picky and gain staging has to be just right. I've found that 3 o'clock on the Master seems to be the sweet spot for the Pod/Mixer, and that anything much higher than 3/4 of the way up on the individual channels really starts to eat up your headroom.

The other thing that is ridiculously important as a bass player is making sure that your ear molds are getting a good seal. You would be surprised at how loud you will have to crank your bass signal with just the littlest seal problem. This could also show up with the drums in general depending on how close you are standing to your drummer. We have a guy who grew up playing metal and openned arena shows for Metallica. He is a good 80 dB (snare only) at the mix position (125' to 150') without the system on! If I'm too close to him my ear molds don't even matter with trying to get the right drum mix. I'll check it out tomorrow after service and see if the same thing is happening on our end though.

Erik

[TwoPort]

FIRST thank you for the amazing quick response. This DUC is awesome!


A. Power-up/down sequence should not cause this error. The system is telling you that the innermost Mix Engine is not able to receive clock from the Snake board (the one with all of the BNC's). A few questions:

When this error comes up are the Snake board lights flashing? If so, what color and sequence?

-- REPLY: At the time I did not think to look at the snake board so I don't know.

Does this seem to happen on the first startup of the day? Could it be temperature related?

REPLY: Yes it has happened on the first startup each of the 3 times it's happened. I'm in the Sacramento California area. Each time this pattern was followed:

1. Loadout into sealed trailer. Spent night outside - ambient outside temperature low about mid 40's.
2. Trailer outside during day of show - ambient outside temperature in 60's and sunny.
3. Load in late afternoon into inside gig - 70 degrees inside. FOH and all equipment inside and open at least 1 hour before "firing it up"

----------- Once the error stopped it did not occurr again. The board normally sits in a class a office suite where the temp probably does not vary between 70 - 75 degress. It has NEVER happened except in the scenario above which has repeated 3 times.


------- I'm going to Tahoe on the 14th for a big gig (for me) I'm more than a little worried out this........ Ideas?? It sounds like a possible board level issue that is failing cause of the temperature. Should I get another one and swap it????? Help.... before it's too late........!


B. Sounds like the fader is failing. You could try to swap positions with another fader to see if the problem follows the fader or the position (it could be the fader motor controller underneath).

REPLY: Hasn't repeated yet - I'll try this when it does. It always says it's Fader 23...



C. It should work both ways.

D. The crosstalk is most likely within the controller itself, as the signals sent from the A-Net Output card are all digital. Try muting the channels instead of just turning them down.

REPLY - I'll try it.


/////////

I gotta say, as a 5-stringer myself (F-Bass BN5) I had a HUGE problem with Aviom, which is why I moved to PQ. The whole system couldn't take my B-string, it was always crunching out like I was using a Tube Screamer (which would be fine if I WAS using a Tube Screamer).

-- I've never had a distortion problem unless the aviom channel itself was clipping in the 4 different environments I use them. I've also found the DIGI card sounds much better than the Aviom converter and has much more headroom.


The thing that I've found is that Aviom is very picky and gain staging has to be just right. I've found that 3 o'clock on the Master seems to be the sweet spot for the Pod/Mixer, and that anything much higher than 3/4 of the way up on the individual channels really starts to eat up your headroom.


--- This is most helpful. I haven't spent the time gain staging.


The other thing that is ridiculously important as a bass player is making sure that your ear molds are getting a good seal. You would be surprised at how loud you will have to crank your bass signal with just the littlest seal problem. This could also show up with the drums in general depending on how close you are standing to your drummer. We have a guy who grew up playing metal and openned arena shows for Metallica. He is a good 80 dB (snare only) at the mix position (125' to 150') without the system on! If I'm too close to him my ear molds don't even matter with trying to get the right drum mix. I'll check it out tomorrow after service and see if the same thing is happening on our end though.


--- I'm using Sensaphonics 2x's. (I also have the Ambient model but there's no need for ambient for a LOUD band!!!!) The Sensaphonics sound fabulous. Generally I've had great results with other aviom systems. I try to monitor as quiet as possible but just like you said - the monitor level is really determined by overcoming the drummer!! I've got a drum shield in front of him how and it's helped alot.

I've also gone back to get much more signal to the aux driving the aviom channels. When they distort I know it's super ugly but they were really too low.. We'll see how it impacts the problems next week.

I'll report back..

---- QUESTION:

Erik - as the FOH mixer I'm trying to plop an aviom in front of the band folks with 16 channels and let them "mess up their own mix." I had initially reasoned that even if the PQ sounded better, the PQ didn't have enough channels to just send a bunch of auxes down line and let the band deal with it.... How involved are you with the PQ mix?

[emluper]

---- QUESTION:

Erik - as the FOH mixer I'm trying to plop an aviom in front of the band folks with 16 channels and let them "mess up their own mix." I had initially reasoned that even if the PQ sounded better, the PQ didn't have enough channels to just send a bunch of auxes down line and let the band deal with it.... How involved are you with the PQ mix?

Since we use both, we kinda determined who it was that had the most problem with the Aviom and who couldn't live without the extra four channels. This was all before 2.5 because since then we've been able to pop things in and out of the PQ mix with snapshots. Our worship leader wouldn't touch in PQ before and now he wouldn't think of going back to Aviom because of the sound quality difference. We haven't switched to the A-Net card yet though so I don't know if the difference is still as huge as it was.

As far as additional flexibility, I know that some other people are also taking unused Matrices and submixing in those and hardpatching them back into the board so that the Matrix mix is also available in the PQ's through snapshots. It's like the analog trick of building a full drum mix and then hardpatching that into a channel of the console so that the entire mix is available for other band members just by turning one knob instead of 12-16 knobs. If you can't quite get the concept let me know and I''ll try to explain it better.

Erik

[gilparente]

Hi Erik,

You should try the A-Net card. Your gain stage is basically going to be set by your preamp (or wherever you have the pick-off point from). It will carry the signal digitally all the way to the output of the Aviom mixer.
I've had other people complain to me about gain staging with the Aviom analog IN box. Not only with the Venue, but with other consoles as well.

I don't have any experience with the PQ system. I'll see if I can get a demo for that.

I've found out through out most of the installs that I've made that have an Aviom system, that in most cases the band doesn't need all 16 channels. With exception for the really big bands.

where are you located?

take care
Gil

[emluper]

Hi gil,

We're in San Jose, CA. We have one of those really BIG bands.

1 Drummer
3 Guitar Players
3 Keyboard Players
1 Bass Player
1 Percussionist
4 Horns
1 Lead Vocalist
6 BGV's

I'm amazed that we make it with the Aviom at all. Might look into the A-Net for the main room and then move the Aviom input card to one of the smaller rooms.

Erik

[TwoPort]

I apologize for not posting sooner. The digi team solved my hardware related problems instantly. Amazing customer support. I hope word gets out that Digi's support is "all that."