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  #131  
Old 03-30-2004, 12:59 PM
s2n s2n is offline
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Default Re: ICON D ? Is this the new controller?

A Pro Tools "studio" (HD and ICON) will still never be able to compete with the studio that has a (large format) analog console (SSL, API, Neve, Trident...), a 2" tape machine, quality outboard gear and Pro Tools. Just like Pro Control and Control24 never replaced analog boards in studios, ICON will fail to do the same. ICON's market is in post-pro mixing. I can see it selling well there.

ICON will never compete with an analog studio.
The same plugins and editing that can be used and performed with ICON can also be used and performed by some kid at home on their LE system. That's the difference; there is none!
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  #132  
Old 03-30-2004, 01:42 PM
thestudio thestudio is offline
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Default Re: ICON D ? Is this the new controller?


What's the hold up on the price and more details?
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  #133  
Old 03-30-2004, 02:06 PM
1150Post 1150Post is offline
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Default Re: ICON D ? Is this the new controller?

Quote:
A Pro Tools "studio" (HD and ICON) will still never be able to compete with the studio that has a (large format) analog console (SSL, API, Neve, Trident...), a 2" tape machine, quality outboard gear and Pro Tools. Just like Pro Control and Control24 never replaced analog boards in studios, ICON will fail to do the same. ICON's market is in post-pro mixing. I can see it selling well there.

ICON will never compete with an analog studio.
The same plugins and editing that can be used and performed with ICON can also be used and performed by some kid at home on their LE system. That's the difference; there is none!
I always thought that the person doing the mixing crafted the sound, not the software.

And, FWIW, I believe that there is a difference in the level of bit precision between HD and LE. So the software can still make a difference as well. Rail?

Come on. Many of us sound more like someone frightened about their current analog or digital investments than anyone who should be contributing to a discussion about this new product. And I'm not inferring that anyone should be frightened by this or not allowed to contribute.

Let's wait and see. I'm not sold either way.

I'm gonna go back into lurk mode. Hope I haven't stepped on too many toes. We just all seem to be in different corners, shouting at something in the middle of the room.... even though we can only see its shadow.

Brad McIlvaine
Sr. Mixer/Designer
Henninger Media Services
Washington, DC 20036

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"Ignorance isn't not knowing something, Ignorance is not understanding that you don't know enough to know that you don't know something!" - My Dad
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  #134  
Old 03-30-2004, 02:24 PM
Ploch Klaus Ploch Klaus is offline
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Default Re: ICON D ? Is this the new controller?

Doing a lot of film-mixing i just wonder why so many of you think this is a great controller for that kind of (film-) business. I sent lots of posts within the last years (i got tired after a while - all posts may be erased by now) - how to improve and make the automation of PT film-like - did not get a single answer and non of all the suggestions are in the current software...
I think none of the film companies will get one of those unless Digi did their homework for film mixing. For me the automation is nearly useless - so another controller wont fix that... (unless you do ads only some seconds long)
What film people need is for example: a second loudness graph - one is used for editing (yes - thats important- cause many sounds are edited by many editors with the level-automation - which makes sense - and if i go over that "editing" while mixing i distroy their editing) - and the other is jused for mixing (the prefs could be used which one is edited by a controller - it is just multiplying two values...).
it would also be important to have a dynamic routing (for all the diff. versions and ITs blabla - well - that might take some time for digi...)
recall of presets of plug-ins is maybe even more important... (you cannot possibly have that many reverbs open on diff. tracks than you will need different "rooms" for a 90 min film - impossibal - every little EFX can do that - so why not just use one of them?... - well - thats what many people do...)

Lots of other things come into my mind - but anyway - it seems to be a cool controller (another one i will not buy)...
Just a impression from someone who does film-mixing as well.
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  #135  
Old 03-30-2004, 03:26 PM
oldmanpotter oldmanpotter is offline
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Default Re: ICON D ? Is this the new controller?

Quote:
Doing a lot of film-mixing i just wonder why so many of you think this is a great controller for that kind of (film-) business. I sent lots of posts within the last years (i got tired after a while - all posts may be erased by now) - how to improve and make the automation of PT film-like - did not get a single answer and non of all the suggestions are in the current software...
I think none of the film companies will get one of those unless Digi did their homework for film mixing. For me the automation is nearly useless - so another controller wont fix that... (unless you do ads only some seconds long)
What film people need is for example: a second loudness graph - one is used for editing (yes - thats important- cause many sounds are edited by many editors with the level-automation - which makes sense - and if i go over that "editing" while mixing i distroy their editing) - and the other is jused for mixing (the prefs could be used which one is edited by a controller - it is just multiplying two values...).
it would also be important to have a dynamic routing (for all the diff. versions and ITs blabla - well - that might take some time for digi...)
recall of presets of plug-ins is maybe even more important... (you cannot possibly have that many reverbs open on diff. tracks than you will need different "rooms" for a 90 min film - impossibal - every little EFX can do that - so why not just use one of them?... - well - thats what many people do...)

Lots of other things come into my mind - but anyway - it seems to be a cool controller (another one i will not buy)...
Just a impression from someone who does film-mixing as well.

I agree with the above suggestion of the desirability of automating buss assignments/routing. However, as to writing automation on top of existing automation, isn't that what trim/write mode does? Also, I'm fairly certain that some plugins can record actual preset changes, while others you need to copy/paste the parameters, then write those values out for the duration of the scene. Also, I believe some plugins are better at accomplishing "silent" preset changes, while others can produce audible artifacts at the break points. That said, you can always duplicate an aux input track containing a plugin, and then checkerboard between the two tracks for silent scene changes, and use only two plugins rather than one for every sonic environment in the film. Obviously I do like mixing inside the box!

The ICON looks great, even if the price is higher than one would wish, IMHO. Yes, it's basically a big mouse, but what a mouse!Did anyone really think it would include the I/O's or CPU?? I think the comparisons with the Euphonix are pretty accurate . . . pretty much two versions of the same animal. Georgia, are you really so dead set against it? Just curious...

Peter
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  #136  
Old 03-30-2004, 03:30 PM
oldmanpotter oldmanpotter is offline
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Default Re: ICON D ? Is this the new controller?

Quote:

I'm gonna go back into lurk mode. Hope I haven't stepped on too many toes. We just all seem to be in different corners, shouting at something in the middle of the room.... even though we can only see its shadow.

LOL...very well put. I think I'll join you in lurk mode Brad.

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  #137  
Old 03-30-2004, 04:19 PM
The Eggman The Eggman is offline
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Default Re: ICON D ? Is this the new controller?

Quote:
A Pro Tools "studio" (HD and ICON) will still never be able to compete with the studio that has a (large format) analog console (SSL, API, Neve, Trident...), a 2" tape machine, quality outboard gear and Pro Tools. Just like Pro Control and Control24 never replaced analog boards in studios, ICON will fail to do the same. ICON's market is in post-pro mixing. I can see it selling well there.

ICON will never compete with an analog studio.
The same plugins and editing that can be used and performed with ICON can also be used and performed by some kid at home on their LE system. That's the difference; there is none!
S2N,

It's probably a good thing that you're not in charge of laying out the future of the Record Plant or Hit Factory, because your thinking is SO far off base.

Dude, analog studios are dying. Going bankrupt. Going out of business. For the most part, it's OVER. FINISHED. DONE. Why? First and foremost, because there are too many analog studios in the world and not enough business. That's one of the basic business rules...it's called Supply and Demand. In the case of analog studios, there is too much SUPPLY and not enough DEMAND. Secondly, analog studios are suffering because anyone working in the industry is working on a DAW rig of some sort and that can be done anywhere (at home, on an airplane, at the beach).

Now, you have stated that ICON-equipped studios will never compete with analog studios, and this is particularly where your thinking is flawed. You see, unlike analog studios, where there is too much supply and not enough demand, there actually is demand for the professional Protools mixing environment, yet no supply. There is no supply because there has been no control surface which could serve the needs of the professional digital engineer (sorry, but Procontrol and Control24 simply weren't full-featured enough). Now that Digi has introduced the Icon, you will certainly see some studios installing the product, because they, unlike you, understand the laws of supply and demand. And whether or not the Icon is the PERFECT product, and whether or not it has every feature it should have, and whether or not it is priced exactly at the right point will not change the fact that when the desk is installed, digital engineers looking for the Protools mixing environment will book the room(s). And just like in the analog world, some engineers will like the Icon and the environment, while others will not. For some years now, there has been quite a bit of pent up demand for this product and the method of working that it represents. When those Icons are installed, the early adaptors will be taking phone call after phone call while you're still wondering why the analog approach is dying. It's all about supply and demand.

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  #138  
Old 03-30-2004, 04:19 PM
s2n s2n is offline
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Default Re: ICON D ? Is this the new controller?

Quote:
And, FWIW, I believe that there is a difference in the level of bit precision between HD and LE. So the software can still make a difference as well. Rail?
It doesn't make a spit of difference when all you're doing in Pro Tools is editing.
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  #139  
Old 03-30-2004, 04:27 PM
s2n s2n is offline
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Default Re: ICON D ? Is this the new controller?

Quote:
It's probably a good thing that you're not in charge of laying out the future of the Record Plant or Hit Factory, because your thinking is SO far off base.

Dude, analog studios are dying. Going bankrupt. Going out of business. For the most part, it's OVER. FINISHED. DONE. Why? First and foremost, because there are too many analog studios in the world and not enough business. That's one of the basic business rules...it's called Supply and Demand. In the case of analog studios, there is too much SUPPLY and not enough DEMAND. Secondly, analog studios are suffering because anyone working in the industry is working on a DAW rig of some sort and that can be done anywhere (at home, on an airplane, at the beach).

Now, you have stated that ICON-equipped studios will never compete with analog studios, and this is particularly where your thinking is flawed. You see, unlike analog studios, where there is too much supply and not enough demand, there actually is demand for the professional Protools mixing environment, yet no supply. There is no supply because there has been no control surface which could serve the needs of the professional digital engineer (sorry, but Procontrol and Control24 simply weren't full-featured enough). Now that Digi has introduced the Icon, you will certainly see some studios installing the product, because they, unlike you, understand the laws of supply and demand. And whether or not the Icon is the PERFECT product, and whether or not it has every feature it should have, and whether or not it is priced exactly at the right point will not change the fact that when the desk is installed, digital engineers looking for the Protools mixing environment will book the room(s). And just like in the analog world, some engineers will like the Icon and the environment, while others will not. For some years now, there has been quite a bit of pent up demand for this product and the method of working that it represents. When those Icons are installed, the early adaptors will be taking phone call after phone call while you're still wondering why the analog approach is dying. It's all about supply and demand.
ADAT never replaced tape either. Yet, there were many that said that the studio with the 2" Studer machine would go out of business. Didn't happen. Digidesign proclaimed in one of their ads that "analog was dead." Didn't happen. ICON is not going to replace an analog studio. NOT GONNA HAPPEN!

Last time I checked, Ocean Way, The Record Pland, Hit Factory, SoundCity, Scream Studios et al still had 2" tape machines and large-format analog consoles. Sure, many track to Pro Tools, but NOBODY that means anything in this business is MIXING in Pro Tools. So, what's the use of a over-priced mouse? For film mixing, sure...go for it. Sound for pix is secondary to visuals. We all know that. You, on the other hand, haven't a clue.

Why would somebody book an ICON-based room for $1000/day, (knowing that they're gonna be mixing in the box), when they can easily rent a Pro Tools rig (or buy a cheap HD rig) and mix at home for a rental fee?

Dood...there's absolutely NO phuqing difference between what you and your ICON facility can provide and somebody with a 002. The results are gonna be the SAME. The SAME plug-ins you use on your mega-waste-of-money ICON system are the same that some kid in his basement is gonna be using. You actually think that THAT is gonna replace a pro analog studio? KEEP ON DREAMING...but, please...lay off the blow/tea before you post.
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  #140  
Old 03-30-2004, 04:31 PM
Armando Armando is offline
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Default Re: ICON D ? Is this the new controller?

I may be opening a can of worms, so my apologies in advance....I got the April issue of Mix yesterday, and while reading an article entitled "Serge Audio", on page 81, he points out his preference of a Fairlight Dream Station over a Pro Control but also states that he hasn't tried the new Pro 24 and that he's heard it better than the PC.

Could this be insider info on an updated Pro Control???
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