kool and the gang production

[Castaliamusic]

Sometimes its hard to teach old dogs new tricks. The wierd thing is some of those old dogs are young.

Are you also teaching?

[B.Ray]

Sometimes its hard to teach old dogs new tricks. The wierd thing is some of those old dogs are young.

DJ

6969,

If you were referring to me, I'm eager to learn some new tricks. That's why I have most of the latest gear (and know how to use it). I want to stay current as much as possible.

Please teach me something new. Share your extensive knowledge. I'm sure the others here can benefit from it as well.

What new trick were you trying to teach me that I didn't get?

[rdolmat]

I have Pro Tools..does that mean I'm a good DJ? Does it work the other way around too?

[kmshroom]

An Instrumentalist, a Turntablist and an Pro Tools Editor all require a certain amount of musical sensibilities. Only one of them requires musicianship. To be fair, the Turntablist DOES make a performance when he "plays" his turntables. But, are the skills required for that performance the same as those required of an instrumentalist? A Turntablist requires a sense of timing, rhythm and musical sensibilities. So, using the broadest definition of musicianship, maybe you can argue that Turntablists are musicians.

maybe?! what?!

okay, i'm not a turntablist, at ALL. like, never even touched a deck. but i'll say this. it's not a case of maybe they are musicians, there is no question they are instrumentalists! i don't even see how you have three categories above. a turntablist is an instrumentalist, who spends many, many hours practicing his craft, and in the end, performs. a turntablist needs to have a great sense of rhythm, among many other things. i would actually say it takes more skill to be a turntablist than it does to be a percussionist in a symphony orchestra. no disrespect to percussionists out there, as i have many percussion friends @ various conservatories, but honestly, sometimes you'll hit the tubular bells like once at the beginning of the piece, and maybe once at the climax. i've been in many orchestras, myself as a flautist, and i'll tell ya, those percussionists don't have to do anything nearly as hard as a turntablist. yes, the solo percussion repertoire is vast, with very hard pieces included. but watching a pro turntablist, i just can't help thinking how good one's sense of rhythm has to even dream of doing that.

[badperson]

i would actually say it takes more skill to be a turntablist than it does to be a percussionist in a symphony orchestra. no disrespect to percussionists out there, as i have many percussion friends @ various conservatories, but honestly, sometimes you'll hit the tubular bells like once at the beginning of the piece, and maybe once at the climax. i've been in many orchestras, myself as a flautist, and i'll tell ya, those percussionists don't have to do anything nearly as hard as a turntablist. yes, the solo percussion repertoire is vast, with very hard pieces included. but watching a pro turntablist, i just can't help thinking how good one's sense of rhythm has to even dream of doing that.

????

The percussionists where I went to school would have given you short change with that, although I do accept your basic argument that various forms of electronic and dance music do require creativity; any form of music requires creativity, that's what people respond to, whether the particular task requires a lot of chops on your instrument or not.

I just don't think that your typical turntablist (is that a word) could play a quint, within a triplet, tied to a group of seven in a bar of 9/4.

My 2 cents.

Anyway, this thread has gotten off the main topic, and I was listening to "ladies night" a few times, and as far as I can tell, the drums sound too metronomic to be played without the aid of some kind of process; editing, drum machine, whatever. It grooves like hell, which is the main thing, but I'm still curious as to how they produced it.

In the opening, the hand claps lead me to believe it must be an early drum machine; did they have samples back then? The straight sixteenths on the ride have very little dynamic change between them.

Hmmm, what do yo all think?
bp

[6969]

We live in a world that has a difficult time understanding evolution. Musicianship evolves like any other thing in society.Its a a fact of human existance. Alot of folks want to think that musicianship is "one or the other". All I'm trying to say is electronica and house and hip hop is a perfect blend of acoustic and electronic. If you have ANY knowledge whatsoever of these genras you would understand this. Most who have a negative opinion(thinking those that create these genras are not musicians)know absolutely nothing about the process of creating the genra of MUSIC that it is.This is what I call...IGNORANCE.Loops and Samples are part of the evolution of pop music.Get used to it.Its musicianship and takes talent and hard work to make something NEW and ORIGINAL from something older and great or not old.Its all about art and what is pleasing to a persons ear. If its not pleasing to your ear,then that means its not musicianship or art?? Whatever.

DJ

[shendrie]

Is a guy who edits film an actor???

This has turned into a kind of silly post... Music is music doesn't matter how you piece it together. Yes, as a guitar playing musician I find it kind of frustrating listening to music that markets itself as new and great when it is just a remake of some old already proven hit song with a new drum loop behind it... however, there is also some really innovative things being done these days and the true test of time will be 10 years from now. Will we fondly laugh at this time in music history like we do with Disco and 80's metal or will it have a long term impact on the direction of music?

Stuart

[kmshroom]

I just don't think that your typical turntablist (is that a word) could play a quint, within a triplet, tied to a group of seven in a bar of 9/4.

can your percussion friends scratch? can they do some of that ill ***** that the Executioners can do?

so they can't play Elliot Carter's solo timpani pieces. so what if they aren't able to be a member of an ensemble playing Edgar Varese's Ionisation? (fabulous pieces by the way=) i can bet money on the fact that turntablists don't (and won't ever want to!) sit at home practicing that stuff.

it's not really fair to say "oh look, they can't do this" when that's not what they're practicing to do. demand that a flautist play the piccolo. sure, there is alot in common, and everyone does make the assumption (>_<), but no matter how good a flautist you are, the first time you pick up a piccolo, you won't even be able to make a decent tone with it.

[B.Ray]

...All I'm trying to say is electronica and house and hip hop is a perfect blend of acoustic and electronic. If you have ANY knowledge whatsoever of these genras you would understand this. Most who have a negative opinion(thinking those that create these genras are not musicians)know absolutely nothing about the process of creating the genra of MUSIC that it is.

Wow! This is gettin' deep. I see that you have misunderstood my point. I have nothing against Electronica or Electronic musicians or current technology. Believe me, I understand those genres and how that music is produced.

With today's technology, you can produce music with less emphasis on musicianship. The technology can take care of that part. Otherwise, what's all the step-sequencing and editing for? Why not just pick up an instrument and play that arpeggio? Why use MIDI? Just hit record on the tape recorder and start playing! That requires musicianship...step-sequencing doesn't.

...This is what I call...IGNORANCE.Loops and Samples are part of the evolution of pop music.Get used to it...

Get used to it? Been used to it for a long time! I've been sampling and making my own loops since 1986 (that's 17 years if my math is right). That's when I bought my first sampler (Akai S612). The next year I bought two Roland samplers (S220 & S550).

Its musicianship and takes talent and hard work to make something NEW and ORIGINAL from something older and great or not old.

Musicianship? Sometimes. Talent and Hard Work? Definitely! Add a lot of creativity in there too. But it's a different kind of talent than what it took to make that "old and great" music that you sampled.

Its all about art and what is pleasing to a persons ear. If its not pleasing to your ear,then that means its not musicianship or art??

When did I say that? For that matter, where did I say I didn't like electronica or House or Hip-Hop music? I do like today's music. But what I like has nothing at to do with the skills required to produce good music today vs what it took to produce good music 30 years ago. From the musicians point of view, those skills can be very different.

You went off on this tangent when I praised the musicianhip of some of the 1970's musicians. If you believe that playing a drum machine is just a valid as playing a drum kit, then it is you who doesn't understand the evolution of musicianship or even what musicianship is.

[matocaster1202]

Mat,

With a razor blade, you can splice together sections of music or you can remove sections of music but I don't know of any way to edit individual drum hits with a razor blade and tape.

BTW, you have to be very accurate when you're splicing togther sections of music with a razor blade. If you make the cut in the wrong place, the whole song is ruined (e.g. cuts have to be made in spots on the tape where there is silence). You have to rock the tape reels across the heads to find the right spot to cut. If you're not careful, you might wind up with a loud pop in the spot where you made your cut.

We didn't have "Undo" buttons.

I hope I didn't imply that they were cutting loops... I just meant that they were using mutiple takes to get a 'supertake' of a song.

Mat