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  #11  
Old 06-27-2020, 05:10 PM
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JFreak JFreak is offline
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Default Re: Can Anyone Verify / Advise? - Plugins / Delay Compensation / Timing / Downbeat

It's the other way around... plugins report latency to PT mixer and PT mixer handles delay compensation. If the plugin gives wrong report, then it will be off. Make sure all of the plugins are updated.
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  #12  
Old 06-27-2020, 05:35 PM
JingleDjango JingleDjango is offline
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Default Re: Can Anyone Verify / Advise? - Plugins / Delay Compensation / Timing / Downbeat

I've had this issue recently with LFOTool. In a busy mix the envelopes don't trigger in time. Attempting to trigger via midi doesn't help but you can nudge the the midi clips in the timeline to compensate.
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  #13  
Old 06-27-2020, 09:01 PM
RTGraham RTGraham is offline
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Default Re: Can Anyone Verify / Advise? - Plugins / Delay Compensation / Timing / Downbeat

Quote:
Originally Posted by JFreak View Post
It's the other way around... plugins report latency to PT mixer and PT mixer handles delay compensation. If the plugin gives wrong report, then it will be off. Make sure all of the plugins are updated.
Thanks Janne.
I understand that the plugins are responsible for reporting their latency to the host so that the host can compensate accordingly by delaying the signal from other plugins to correctly synchronize with the latency-induced audio.

I don't believe that's the issue here.
For one thing, many of the plugins that exhibit this issue are zero-latency plugins, including the A.I.R. Filter Gate and Pumper that are bundled with Pro Tools, and xfer's LFOTool.
For another, in my test scenario the audio is processed correctly as long as there are no other latency-inducing plugins *before* these rhythmic processing plugins; but if there are any latency-inducing plugins *upstream* of the Filter Gate or Pumper or LFOTool, then the timing of the rhythmic processing is skewed.

The appearance is that part of how these plugins operate is that they must be getting timing information from Pro Tools. The Filter Gate, for example, does its rhythmic thing even while the transport isn't running, but once you press play the timing jumps to match up with the grid. (Or at least, it matches as long as there's no other latent plugin in front of it.)
It doesn't matter whether playback starts on a measure boundary. Even if you start playback on the 768th tick of the third quarter note of the measure, the Filter Gate will jump to attempt to synchronize with the grid. That indicates that the plugin isn't just being told "OK - GO! And reset to the beginning of your pattern!"
It's also being told *where* in the pattern the "GO" is occurring.

So it's not just about whether they're reporting latency correctly, or whether latency is being compensated. It seems to be about whether the plugins know where they are in rhythmic time - whether they know the current timestamp accurately. And having other delay-compensated plugins in the session seems to affect how that's being communicated to them.

Hopefully that makes sense to you. And if there's something obvious that I'm misunderstanding about this, or some other way that these plugins are able to do what they do without needing to know the timestamp, let me know.

Also - have you followed the example steps I listed in my second post in this thread? It should be pretty quick, and will let you hear exactly what I'm describing.
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  #14  
Old 06-27-2020, 09:06 PM
RTGraham RTGraham is offline
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Default Re: Can Anyone Verify / Advise? - Plugins / Delay Compensation / Timing / Downbeat

Quote:
Originally Posted by JingleDjango View Post
I've had this issue recently with LFOTool. In a busy mix the envelopes don't trigger in time. Attempting to trigger via midi doesn't help but you can nudge the the midi clips in the timeline to compensate.
Yes. EXACTLY.
In a busy mix the envelopes don't trigger with proper timing. And what I'm discovering in my attempts to explain and demonstrate this is that it appears to be related to what other delay compensation is being induced by plugins elsewhere in the session - either upstream of LFOTool, etc., or in other parallel signal paths.
And even though you can adjust the positioning of the envelope (LFOTool calls it Phase, AIR Pumper calls it Shift), you can't guarantee that it will stay correct because as soon as something changes the delay compensation topography it all goes out the window again.

Thanks for confirming that I'm not the only one seeing this.
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  #15  
Old 06-28-2020, 07:30 AM
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Default Re: Timing Problems in Plugins that Synchronize to Measure Boundaries

Try sending the output of channels with any plug-in with this behavior to its own aux channel. Then send the aux output to your mix bus.

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  #16  
Old 06-28-2020, 07:48 PM
RTGraham RTGraham is offline
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Default Re: Timing Problems in Plugins that Synchronize to Measure Boundaries

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Originally Posted by arche3 View Post
Try sending the output of channels with any plug-in with this behavior to its own aux channel. Then send the aux output to your mix bus.

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Thanks.
I've tried this, and it doesn't change the problematic behavior, but thank you for the suggestion.
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  #17  
Old 06-28-2020, 08:16 PM
RTGraham RTGraham is offline
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Default Re: Can Anyone Verify / Advise? - Plugins / Delay Compensation / Timing / Downbeat

I've edited the original post to begin with what I'm about to type here, but here it is in its own reply in case anyone previously looking at this thread jumps to where they left off.

Here's a super-short summary of the problem I've been trying to describe, plus a super-quick-and-easy series of steps to follow to duplicate the problem yourself.

PROBLEM:
Audio plugins that provide tempo-synced processing, and also require synchronization to measure boundaries, exhibit timing problems when a delay-compensated plugin is present before them in the signal path.

EXAMPLES:
Pro Tools comes bundled with the A.I.R. Creative Collection. Within that collection are the Filter Gate plugin, which "slices" or gates the audio (while also offering the option to filter it) on a rhythmic basis, with a variety of parameters for controlling that behavior. When operating properly, it can provide rhythmic effects that stay in time with the music - i.e. "on the grid"; and also the Pumper plugin, which mimics the effect of a typical EDM sidechain operation whereby the kick ducks the other instruments - which also, when operating properly, provides a rhythmic effect whose relationship to "the grid" is predictable.
Third-party plugins like xfer's LFOTool and SoundToys' Tremolator similarly depend on knowing where the downbeat occurs.

VERY QUICK SERIES OF STEPS TO DEMONSTRATE THE PROBLEM:
(1) Create a new session.
(2) Create two mono audio tracks. Name the first one "CLICK" and the second one "Signal Pulse."
(3) Insert the Click II plugin on the CLICK track. The default settings are fine, and most likely will be Click 1 at a quarter note with the "Classic Click Acc" sound and Click 2 also at a quarter note with the "Classic Click" sound, with "Follow Meter" enabled. Make sure the click is enabled in the session settings.
(4) Insert a Signal Generator plugin on the THIRD insert (Insert C) of the Signal Pulse track. Its settings can really be anything, but it makes it easy to hear what's going on is you set it to a square wave, 120 Hz, -15.0 dB.
(5) Insert a Filter Gate plugin on the FIFTH insert (Insert E) of the Signal Pulse track. Set Pattern to Straight, Attack to 0%, Hold to 15%, Release to 5%, Filter Mode to Off, Rate to 1/4 note, Swing to 50%, and Mix to 100%. Leave Env and LFO both at 0%.
You will now hear the square wave pulsing like a click, even though the transport is not running.
(6) Engage the transport (press play). The Filter Gate plugin will "jump" to match the timing of the engaged transport, and you will hear the click and the square wave pulse in perfect synchronization.
(7) Stop the transport and insert a Maxim plugin in the FOURTH insert (Insert D) of the Signal Pulse track. Set its Mix to 0% (fully dry). We are forcing delay compensation because Maxim is a plugin that induces latency.
(8) Start playback again. You will hear that the click and the square pulse are no longer perfectly synchronized. They should be, however, as the Filter Gate plugin is designed to know where in the measure it is. This is the problematic behavior.
(9) Insert another Maxim plugin in the FIRST insert (Insert A) of the Signal Pulse track, also with its Mix set to 0%. You can leave the transport running while you do this, or stop and restart it. The problem will become more pronounced now that there is longer delay compensation.

THINGS THAT DO NOT FIX THIS:
• Buffer size
• Any of the "Delay Compensation for External Devices" options in Preferences
• Routing the track to an Aux before it reaches a hardware output
• Using, or not using, Low Latency Monitoring
• Using, or not using, a Master Fader

The one thing that DOES fix this is turning off Delay Compensation.
But in a mix session, that completely throws off the music's timing and synchronization and precision, and introduces phase issues.

So is this a Delay Compensation bug? Or is this a flaw in the way Pro Tools reports its timecode to timing-dependent plugins when delay compensation is present in a session?
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  #18  
Old 06-29-2020, 06:15 AM
JingleDjango JingleDjango is offline
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Default Re: Can Anyone Verify / Advise? - Plugins / Delay Compensation / Timing / Downbeat

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTGraham View Post
I've edited the original post to begin with what I'm about to type here, but here it is in its own reply in case anyone previously looking at this thread jumps to where they left off.

Here's a super-short . . .
Your post is thorough and descriptive and I hope the issue gets some attention. This has been a major hindrance to me lately because clients are bringing me contemporary electronic music to mix and these tempo sync'd envelope fx are essential to some genres. In my experience Ableton and Logic accomplish delay compensation well without throwing off tempo sync'd or midi triggered timings. They are not my preferred mix/edit platforms for a multitude of other reasons however.

EDIT: I'll be submitting a support ticket. In my experience this is the quickest way to get the dev team's attention on a software failure. The Pro Mix subforums are a different story. EddieJones (Avid employee) is always monitoring those pages and addressing issues as they're posted. RTGraham, maybe you should do the same?

Last edited by JingleDjango; 06-29-2020 at 06:58 AM. Reason: sp
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  #19  
Old 06-29-2020, 11:00 AM
RTGraham RTGraham is offline
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Default Re: Can Anyone Verify / Advise? - Plugins / Delay Compensation / Timing / Downbeat

Quote:
Originally Posted by JingleDjango View Post
Your post is thorough and descriptive and I hope the issue gets some attention. This has been a major hindrance to me lately because clients are bringing me contemporary electronic music to mix and these tempo sync'd envelope fx are essential to some genres. In my experience Ableton and Logic accomplish delay compensation well without throwing off tempo sync'd or midi triggered timings. They are not my preferred mix/edit platforms for a multitude of other reasons however.

EDIT: I'll be submitting a support ticket. In my experience this is the quickest way to get the dev team's attention on a software failure. The Pro Mix subforums are a different story. EddieJones (Avid employee) is always monitoring those pages and addressing issues as they're posted. RTGraham, maybe you should do the same?
Thanks. Yeah, this kind of plugin treatment is something that gets asked for almost immediately in certain genres, and it would be great not to have to leave the PT mix environment just for these tasks.

I hadn't thought to submit an official support ticket - I was mainly trying to confirm first whether anyone else was seeing this and whether it was repeatable.
Now that the process of trying to explain it has resulted in a quick, simple recipe for duplicating it, and now that I've duplicated it myself on multiple systems, I should go ahead with a support ticket.
I'm not familiar with the process at this point. If you've submitted a ticket, do I then add support to that, or do I submit my own?
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  #20  
Old 06-29-2020, 12:08 PM
JingleDjango JingleDjango is offline
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Default Re: Can Anyone Verify / Advise? - Plugins / Delay Compensation / Timing / Downbeat

I suggest you open a new case of your own. I'll report back if i see any action on my open case. So far not so much as an email to confirm an open ticket.
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