DIA and MX embedded to geher in OMF??

[manis]

I have been getting back OMFs from all the students (yes all) with the music and dialogue, and atmos embedded into the same track on the OMFs I get. These are basically commercials and small 4 min docos as the honours students are honing their skill in readiness for their main movie they will be making for the year.

of course this is not correct.

what levels should they aim for.., max and average??

could this be the editor, or is it possible the location mixers are calibrated too low? In which case, as I am the post sound person for this year (yes, hard to believe and scary isn't it ) should i advise the location sound to mix it a little hot and/ or ask the editor to watch the output of.., what? the overall levels, the individual levels (in the sweet spot) because as I said I have been adding gain of between 167$ and 200%.

should the tracks in the OMF be coming in the order I need them, the levels I need them, separated as I need them? Its like when I get the OMFs she has bounced down all tracks to two monos and also the original tracks are still there too, except they have been bounced to the two monos?? I have had to pull the OMFs a part (and throw them away actually) and start from scratch every film I have got back.., the OMFs are worse than useless.

what should I be looking for in a good OMF I guess is the question?
M:)

[Peter Groom]

Mmmm, Im not sure how they would end up with multiple audio cues occupying the same space on the same track.
OMF ive always made as a picture editor or recieved from edit suites are an embedded file in either OMF1 or 2 type. Needs to be type 2 for Pro Tools. The audio is always mono as this is how OMF handles it. What edit system are they coming from.?

Level wise, unless they are adlusting the levels, and then rendering this level change to a new file, then the level you get in the omf will be as it is on the tape (presuming they import at unity gain - no increase or decrease.

Automation isnt usually carried across, but it does depend on the originating programme. FCP doesnt export gain automation in omf.

I think it would be helpful if you could add some more info about what the workflow is and what platforms are involved.
Peter

[TheHenchman]

All the tracks should be separate.
No processing applied at all, IMO.
I know there's an option on some programs where you can apply leveling and whatever processing (EQ,FX) was there, to the exported audio.
Tell them to NOT do this.
Also, if they do render the level automation they did, you'll be fighting pre-existing fader moves. NOT the way to go.
So, tell them to give you separate, unmixed, un-processed tracks.

Don't you just love film schools. NONE of them I've run into have anyone teaching them ANYTHING about audio, or how to deliver files to an audio house. Or even teach tem anything about frmae rates etc.
The number of editors I've run into who think that 24 and 23.98 are the same thing is staggering.
And then they try to blame the sound hosue when everythign is otu of synch when they deliver the wrong format.

[Sonsey]

Hi Manis,

The "mixdown" is likely the result of the students using nested sequences in FCP. If you have a sequence with nested sequences inside it, when you export an OMF, the nested sequences will simply show up as a single stereo track. The workarounds are:

1. Have them NOT use nested sequences (Good luck with that...)

2. Have them export OMF's of each nested sequence. Then in PT import the OMFS using the "Map start time to" option in the import box. Use the start time of the mixed region and the separate tracks should come in in sync. You can either create new tracks (best if they haven't been careful about track layout in FCP) or import to existing tracks.

[TheHenchman]

Hi Manis,

The "mixdown" is likely the result of the students using nested sequences in FCP. If you have a sequence with nested sequences inside it, when you export an OMF, the nested sequences will simply show up as a single stereo track. The workarounds are:

1. Have them NOT use nested sequences (Good luck with that...)

2. Have them export OMF's of each nested sequence. Then in PT import the OMFS using the "Map start time to" option in the import box. Use the start time of the mixed region and the separate tracks should come in in sync. You can either create new tracks (best if they haven't been careful about track layout in FCP) or import to existing tracks.

Again, why isn't their FCP instructor telling them this?

This kind of thing really annoys me. Knowing people are payign to go these schools, and not even being taught the nuts and bolts of the programs they're using.

[TheHenchman]

Hi Manis,

The "mixdown" is likely the result of the students using nested sequences in FCP. If you have a sequence with nested sequences inside it, when you export an OMF, the nested sequences will simply show up as a single stereo track. The workarounds are:

1. Have them NOT use nested sequences (Good luck with that...)

2. Have them export OMF's of each nested sequence. Then in PT import the OMFS using the "Map start time to" option in the import box. Use the start time of the mixed region and the separate tracks should come in in sync. You can either create new tracks (best if they haven't been careful about track layout in FCP) or import to existing tracks.

Again, why isn't their FCP instructor telling them this?

This kind of thing really annoys me. Knowing people are payign to go these schools, and not even being taught the nuts and bolts of the programs they're using.

[Sonsey]

Hey Mark,

Well in all fairness... even experienced editors don't know this happens... unless someone tells them. I'll lay it at the feet of Apple... there's exactly ONE sentence about this in the FCP manual and it doesn't even state it explicitly. But having said that I agree with your point.

Manis, continue to tell your instructors about what you learn here... in addition to learning, you'll be helping every student that follows you in that course. We all complain about the state of schools here, but one of the things we CAN do is to tell them about it! Most schools actually DO want to be useful to their students (so they keep getting them and therefore the money), but unless we tell them what's wrong with their courses, they'll just keep churning out the same bad courses year after year. I've been amazed how many times the administration at the college I teach at will say "Really? We thought the course was complete!" when I point out some obvious oversight. It won't get fixed overnight, but if we do nothing it certainly won't get better at all!

[manis]

yes, FCP, thats the editing system of course. As far as school, well the same crew 'teaching' me audio (who is a DOP) has a couple of the students in our class teaching us 'dreamweaver' to make narrative websites (this is where I've been, watching digi tuts on dreamweaver because thats useless at school too. ) because they are too lazy to learn a program they are teaching.., yes I know this sounds bizzare at 4th year uni.

I could go on Im so mad, and 'in fairness', my teachers hate me telling them anything, or the two at production do, the situation is backstabbing at the lecturing level and they are unprofessional enough to let it spill to the student body.. thats my bitch and more i wont go into im so angry about it, my supervisor told me last week I wasnt good enough fr honours, so I wrote to the head of the dept and told them about it saying if thats true Ill go, if its not no-one should be talked to like that. AND strange i did 5 honours movies last year and won one of five undergrad awards for it.

Yes my mission is to help the students (and the lecturers if they can swallow their ego) because it is could really do with a bit of good info.

the workflow around has been nailed already; Editing suite is FCP, the its delivered to me as OMFs (which as I said are completely useless). I think they have done everything you have mentioned not to do and I WILL let them know what to do, I would love it if the supervisor will pick up on it too, and pass on (if she will listen to anything I say). All the books she has got for the library about sound come directly from advice from this forum (so she does listen occasionally, she just had a baby and she is running between that and school like a crazy person).., so the info here is already helping the school.., as I said thats my little mission for the time because its an insult to audio the way it is.

Ill digest all this thread as a print out, gotts get to uni now

thanks all, very big help

[TheHenchman]

Hey Mark,

Well in all fairness... even experienced editors don't know this happens... unless someone tells them. I'll lay it at the feet of Apple... there's exactly ONE sentence about this in the FCP manual and it doesn't even state it explicitly. But having said that I agree with your point.

Even if it's one line in the manual, it's a very important line, and the instructor should know, and teach the students, as it is a very important issue in the real world.
It's the instructors job to KNOW the course they are teaching.

My experinece with alot of the media schools around here, is that the people teaching the courses have done little to no work in the real world, and in fact their main gig was getting hired to teach after finishing the course.

[Sonsey]

My experience with alot of the media schools around here, is that the people teaching the courses have done little to no work in the real world, and in fact their main gig was getting hired to teach after finishing the course.

Sad, but true... There's an old saying "Academia breeds Academia"!

I can feel your frustration Manis... it's always hard to be the one who's trying to do it right when no-one around you really cares. But welcome to Film and Television! Those professors and students now, will be replaced by directors and producers later on! Finding diplomatic ways to tell people in charge that they need to do something different is a skill that will serve you very well later (I know I'm still working hard at it...)

Unless we as an industry stand up and TELL these schools that these courses are useless, they won't change. And for better or for worse, schools are now seen as "the way" to get into the business...and those students are going to be the ones taking this industry forward.