Pro Tools 12 — I don't care about the release date, because...

[LDS]

Originally Posted by brdst

Or maybe what we charge clients? There has been a lot of cheap work around since I started... and it hurts a lot more than 600 a year! Sorry if thats too much your not charging enough.

Jeebus. Your landlord must love you. No doubt he jacks up the price and just says "charge your clients more" in response.

[Bill Denton]

But brdst is touching on a common problem...

In a lot of markets there is a problem with "I'm just doing this for fun" or "I'm just getting started" or "this is just a side job for me".

All too often folks like that "lowball" prices so much that it becomes impossible for true professionals to actually make a living.

The pros are forced to move to another market or go out of business, then you end up with a market full of amateurs.

The clients who need pro-quality work are forced to go elsewhere, and eventually there is no longer a market for professionals in that market, and the market completely dies.

In the US, it's against the law to collude with others or conspire to set prices, but there's no law against having friends call other professionals to find out what the "market rate" is before setting your prices...

[LDS]

Originally Posted by Bill Denton

But brdst is touching on a common problem...

In a lot of markets there is a problem with "I'm just doing this for fun" or "I'm just getting started" or "this is just a side job for me".

All too often folks like that "lowball" prices so much that it becomes impossible for true professionals to actually make a living.

The pros are forced to move to another market or go out of business, then you end up with a market full of amateurs.

The clients who need pro-quality work are forced to go elsewhere, and eventually there is no longer a market for professionals in that market, and the market completely dies.

In the US, it's against the law to collude with others or conspire to set prices, but there's no law against having friends call other professionals to find out what the "market rate" is before setting your prices...

Colluding wouldn't work anyway. I think the biggest influence in the last decade or so has been the abundance of cheap recording equipment and a do-it-yourself mentality. We can't change that. It seems people are now being sold the idea of a career in recording rather than a career as a musician.

I do think that this industry has always been quite diverse though. A colleague of mine started out in 1992 recording to 8-track cassette. He built his niche within the local punk community and over 20 years later he is still recording day in and day out - though his equipment has changed over the years. For that very reason, "market rates" don't exist. He was exceptionally busy recording to 8-track cassette and a lot of his clients back then are still his clients now... many in different bands and lineups.

But to think that he "low balled" something like studio 301 located just down the road is ridiculous. A multi-million dollar facility with a large format console and ample racks of outboard gear would have to be in a pretty dire predicament to be undermined by a chap with an 8-track cassette recorder.

Both 301 and my colleague offered completely different notions of "value-for-money" to very different client bases. They had complete different levels of overhead and running costs that are worlds apart. Any kind of "market value" idea in this industry is destined to fail because the expectations, desires and monetary investment on behalf of the clients out there span every imaginable level. The trick has always been to find that allusive niche... maintaining client relationships and offering a good service and product.

Rent & Electricity are unavoidable operating costs. A "$599/yr or else" policy is avoidable... and the point that Protools has lost its value for me. The audio software industry is no different to the recording industry really. 7 years ago I spend a fortune on TDM plugins. Often $400 or $500 a pop. Last year the most expensive plugin I purchased was Fab Filter Q2 - on sale for $150. Prices are getting cheaper by the day. I work hard to maintain my client based and offer the pricing and service that they expect. A lot of software developers do too. Avid on the other hand is off on a whole other tangent now though. The service has changed over the last 4 years. The terms have changed dramatically over the last 12 months, and they are changes that I simply don't agree with.

[coolbass]

Originally Posted by Bill Denton

But brdst is touching on a common problem...

In a lot of markets there is a problem with "I'm just doing this for fun" or "I'm just getting started" or "this is just a side job for me".

All too often folks like that "lowball" prices so much that it becomes impossible for true professionals to actually make a living.

The pros are forced to move to another market or go out of business, then you end up with a market full of amateurs.

The clients who need pro-quality work are forced to go elsewhere, and eventually there is no longer a market for professionals in that market, and the market completely dies.

In the US, it's against the law to collude with others or conspire to set prices, but there's no law against having friends call other professionals to find out what the "market rate" is before setting your prices...

So, Bill, I think by your own admission, you are not a audio- or post-professional. Shouldn't you just stop your pedantic remarks towards others?

[brdst]

Well put and I agree with most of what your saying. Sorry if I offended anybody. I definitely see your point. I would hope Avid can make good with the promise of a faster more stable update path with this new model. If they can, I still support it.

Originally Posted by LDS

Colluding wouldn't work anyway. I think the biggest influence in the last decade or so has been the abundance of cheap recording equipment and a do-it-yourself mentality. We can't change that. It seems people are now being sold the idea of a career in recording rather than a career as a musician.

I do think that this industry has always been quite diverse though. A colleague of mine started out in 1992 recording to 8-track cassette. He built his niche within the local punk community and over 20 years later he is still recording day in and day out - though his equipment has changed over the years. For that very reason, "market rates" don't exist. He was exceptionally busy recording to 8-track cassette and a lot of his clients back then are still his clients now... many in different bands and lineups.

But to think that he "low balled" something like studio 301 located just down the road is ridiculous. A multi-million dollar facility with a large format console and ample racks of outboard gear would have to be in a pretty dire predicament to be undermined by a chap with an 8-track cassette recorder.

Both 301 and my colleague offered completely different notions of "value-for-money" to very different client bases. They had complete different levels of overhead and running costs that are worlds apart. Any kind of "market value" idea in this industry is destined to fail because the expectations, desires and monetary investment on behalf of the clients out there span every imaginable level. The trick has always been to find that allusive niche... maintaining client relationships and offering a good service and product.

Rent & Electricity are unavoidable operating costs. A "$599/yr or else" policy is avoidable... and the point that Protools has lost its value for me. The audio software industry is no different to the recording industry really. 7 years ago I spend a fortune on TDM plugins. Often $400 or $500 a pop. Last year the most expensive plugin I purchased was Fab Filter Q2 - on sale for $150. Prices are getting cheaper by the day. I work hard to maintain my client based and offer the pricing and service that they expect. A lot of software developers do too. Avid on the other hand is off on a whole other tangent now though. The service has changed over the last 4 years. The terms have changed dramatically over the last 12 months, and they are changes that I simply don't agree with.

[brdst]

Originally Posted by LDS

The trick has always been to find that allusive niche... maintaining client relationships and offering a good service and product.

Also, take out the word allusive and this is great advice.

Thanks for your input.

[shamanrock]

Originally Posted by huzzam

Avid will never see another dollar, euro, Turkish lira, or Madagascar Ariary (had to look that up) from me again, unless they change from this subscription madness. I'm a musician, working on my own projects, and not running a big studio. $30 a month or $300 a year is a complete non-starter, especially given that missing a month means a complete lack of access to old projects.

So I guess I'm sticking with PT 11 till I die... Good thing I mostly like it...

~peter in istanbul

ps-- why did the "I" in "I don't care about the release date" get turned into "bleep?"

I agree!!!

I've been a loyal pro tools user since 2007. Their subscription greed is the last straw!
I will be jumping ship to presonus or Cubase or logic.
Bye Avid.

[paul007]

Originally Posted by Bill Denton

But brdst is touching on a common problem...

In a lot of markets there is a problem with "I'm just doing this for fun" or "I'm just getting started" or "this is just a side job for me".

All too often folks like that "lowball" prices so much that it becomes impossible for true professionals to actually make a living.

The pros are forced to move to another market or go out of business, then you end up with a market full of amateurs.

The clients who need pro-quality work are forced to go elsewhere, and eventually there is no longer a market for professionals in that market, and the market completely dies.

In the US, it's against the law to collude with others or conspire to set prices, but there's no law against having friends call other professionals to find out what the "market rate" is before setting your prices...

That's why we had PT LE and CPTK.

Content specific sound editors (dialogue, fx, ambiences, foley) for instance don't always need a full blown system to do their work.

The market of post sound editors with smaller systems is not "full of amateurs". They intermediate between picture lock and final mix&master in larger (Avid) post houses.

I think it has been a silly move from Avid to widen the gap between a low and high end systems, forgetting about "mid size" audio post editing suites.

You need all sizes; free for starters to get a taste, low end for (semi) hobbyists, mid size for editing, HD for mixing.
Especially if you want "Avid Everywhere" to be everywhere

Now it's like Ipad Mini and Mac Pro, with nothing in between.

[legreg6]

Originally Posted by lexaudio

Ok, here is the real truth and "rub". The mods and AVID like to "steer" you away from this very fact.

Yes, if you have a perpetual license, it will not go away. If you have a subscription it will.

So let's say, you buy the 199 annual "extortion support" and in a year, when it is up for "renewal", you either don't have the money at that point, or AVID has put nothing of value into the software that you need at that time.

While your license will remain at that version, let's say V12.2.1. That is the last version you will be able to use.
You will not be able to get updates. And worse yet, you will NEVER be able to UPGRADE that perpetual license. It is FROZEN at that version FOREVER.

IF you want to get the next update, lets say that v12.2.3 fixes a very annoying bug that has been their since V12.1.2 for the year, you will not be able to get it.

However, if you buy a "NEW" perpetual license for 899, you will have one year to get on a "plan" or the whole process starts over again.

It is nothing more than extortion. Pay monthly or annually, or lose the ability to update and upgrade FOREVER.

And from Bobby himself, the music community is not moving up to 12. There is nothing they want in it, and everyone feels the same about this annual "must" or lose deal.

Logic, DP, Cubase and Nuendo are getting looked at heavily again and many are consider moving to other platforms.

+1
I think I am going to stick to 11, and meanwhile start (re)using Logic. I had stopped at Logic 9, moved to Pro tools but really hate Avid marketing politics. I also have to say that PT is the least stable DAW I've used. And I think Avid shows very little respect, if any, to the developer's community (AAX format has been a nightmare, specially for small developers).
I bought PT 10 in early Jan 2013, Academic License, with an included free update plan of 4 years. When 11 came out, it was not even sure Avid would stand by this plan. I did not even looked into this yet, but I imagine the worst.

Anyway, I was reading today about Logic 10.1 update, and quite honestly, I don't see what can justify spending this kind of money on Pro tools at this point. At least in my perspective. And, yes, quite honestly, I have a very hard time believing that the music community will stick to PT much longer. Avid is TOTALLY out of touch imho.