How to deal with Latency from Surround Mixer - Stereo Mixer.

[Spyderrp7]

I'm having an awful time. Really.
I lost around 4 hours, searching, trying, testing, only to get here and ask for some empathy.
I'm working a project on a Pro Tools 9 system. I'm at the mixing point. My audio card is an Eleven Rack. I have Automatic Delay Compensation enabled. Long (4095) setting. With all my plugins enabled, I have a maximum latency of around 211 samples, which is easily compensated with ADC.
Now, opening that project on a Pro Tools 9HD system with HD TDM cards, the latency nightmare begins:
1. All plugins try to load as TDM. But since I have only 1x Accel card and 1x HD Core card, I don't have enough resources for all plugins to load as TDM, so most plugins load as RTAS. What happens if I have in the same audio channel a TDM plugin with a RTAS plugin? MORE latency. So for example, I have my Snare Drum channel with 5 plugins. If I have them all set to RTAS, my latency is 163 samples. Converting one of those 5 plugins to TDM, then my latency gets 2276 samples!
So first clue, I need to get all my plugins to RTAS, so I don't have extra latency problems. My plugins were all saved as RTAS, but Pro Tools HD forces the plugins to load as TDM. That is unbelievable! I can't find an option to change that!!! Damn! Ok.... but even after converting all my plugins to RTAS, the nightmare continues:

2. In my mixes I use a lot of Aux Input tracks. I use them for routing my whole drum kit for example, or for reverb returns, or for mix summing and so on. But I also use RTAS inserts on those Aux Inputs. But since routing on Pro Tools HD happens by using the TDM plugin Stereo Mixer (or Surround Mixer), this means that on that Aux track I'm still messing with RTAS and TDM plugin at the same channel. That means I get an extra latency of 2116samples. So if for example my mixing routing has 5 or 6 stages until it gets to the point to hear actually audio from the physical output, that means a latency of over 10000samples, which is totally unaccepted.

Conclusion: It's unbelievable that I can't get to properly listen my mix that I made on a cheap Pro Tools 9 system, on a very expensive Pro Tools 9HD TDM system. That is just amazing. I'm freaked out.
So is there a chance that I could use an RTAS version of the Surround Mixer on the Pro Tools 9 HD system?

PS. I tried using as Playback engine the Pro Tools Aggregate I/O. It worked cool, no latency problems. But still that uses the Mac Pro motherboard audio sound card, and not the HD 192 IO. So it's still useless.

[Spyderrp7]

It's a shame noone has a clue or replied something on this matter.

[JFreak]

I usually have my TDM mixes below 500 samples even though the mixer was complicated. There must be something "wrong" in your mixer, or you must be using some time-hogging look-ahead plugins which are supposed to be only used in the master 2-track. Perhaps a screenshot of what you're doing?

[Spyderrp7]

Ok , I made a very simple project just for you to see the nightmare I'm having with latency. I have 2 screenshots, one with TDM plugins (no latency problems here), and one with RTAS plugins (nightmare).

Tell me what you think...

Here is the link for the TDM screenshot:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B0p...DRJVmVaYnVfSkU

[Spyderrp7]

And here is the same project, with all plugins RTAS.
I'm way off beyond the 4095 samples delay compensation and this is just a very simple project for demonstration purposes.

Here is the RTAS screenshot:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B0p...3lSWXRoY2VQNm8

[JFreak]

It seems to me that your mixer has double outputs, one with Maxim and another without. That is why the (ridiculously high) latency of Maxim plugin needs to be compensated. I have two suggestions for you:

1) insert Maxim for the recorder output as well, just have it bypassed. This way both outputs share the same config.
2) change the Maxim plugin to something that really works. For example, the great-sounding free limiter made by www.masseyplugins.com (does not save presets until you buy it, and it's still dirt cheap -- really really really worth it).

So, get rid of the Maxim latency and you should be fine.

[Spyderrp7]

JFreak thank you for your fast reply,
But I have only one output, and that is from the Aux Input called RECORDER.
The "MIX BUS" feeds through bus, the RECORDER. If you look closely on the screenshots you can see the I/O and how each channel feeds the next.
My problem is not the latency of Maxim. That's only 1028samples and I can easily compensate that. The problem is the latency of the RTAS-TDM combination which is 2116samples that add to each other.
If you look at the RTAS screen, the DRUMSBUS has a latency of 2116 just because I use an RTAS plugin. My MIX BUS also gets another 2116 latency (+ the latency of the maxim, sums up to 3140samples). So until I reach my RECORDER, I have a sum of 4232 samples latency that I cannot compensate.
And please keep in mind, this is very simple project, a small demonstration. In large projects that I mix, with over 170voices, I usually route my different snares through a bus, the same goes to by kick drums... I will route through a bus my drums, I will use Aux Inputs for Effects, I might also have Aux Input for controlling my GUITARS, or KEYBOARDS, or BACKGROUND VOCALS, you name it. I can use a whole bunch of Aux Inputs.
But that latency 2116samples, just because I use an RTAS plugin on an Aux Input is just ridiculous.

[JFreak]

Okay, on 2nd look, you're correct. But WHY would you want to do that? Record a limiter effect? I assumed you're routing the same mix to 1) limiter->monitor and 2) recorder. I would use the same buss for monitoring and recording. It's generally bad idea to route a mix to an aux to an aux to an aux, because that always adds latency.

In any case, Maxim latency is your problem.

[JFreak]

Generally you would want to build your mixer like this:

1) channel input (track) goes to a buss or a send or a real output
2) a buss goes to a real output
3) a send goes to a real output

At any point, you can duplicate outputs. No reason to go from channel to aux to aux to aux to aux to aux ..... to output. Think about it.

[Spyderrp7]

Originally Posted by JFreak

Okay, on 2nd look, you're correct. But WHY would you want to do that?

You have to be kidding me!! Why?? Because I like my mixes to be complicated!
That's the way I roll. If I want to compress my drums I have to route them through an Aux Input to compress them. Same goes to whatever I want to process as a group. That's why I use a LOT of Aux Inputs.
And you have to admit that the same complicated mix on a RTAS cheap M-Audio system has NO LATENCY AT ALL, but when I go to a super expensive TDM system, I can't deal with latency. That is driving me nuts!!!