SRS Circle Surround or Pro Logic II? How to sell?

[scott waz]

SRS just announced a PT plug-in. I would like to hear from all of you with experience in surround mixing for broadcast; what is your preferred two track delivery system for analogue transmissions?

Also, how is a surround mix situation for TV spot mixing addressed by/with your client? Are they telling you? Do some of your clients assume a surround mix? Are you pushing the scenario on them? With both platforms available, are you or your client making the choice; SRS or PL2?

How are you introducing the format to new or inexperienced clients?

HDTV 5.1 Dolby E delivery seems to be the easy sell. Logical. "Expected". Growing.

But what about the analogue (main stream) scenario?

Scott Waz
President
www.audiopostphila.com

[dr sound]

Scott,
Good to see you here again! As a guy who has been mixing Surround since 91, and as a Beta tester for SRS, I probably can answer your question. Mixing Surround shouldn't take you any longer to mix than Stereo once you've set up your room and templates in Pro Tools. The only thing now to Mix Dolby Pro Logic II is a hardware box. The cost is around $3500. When the SRS plug in is available it will list for $795. I currently use the Dolby Pro Logic One plug in for all my mixes when a Lt/Rt is needed. Obviously a discrete 5.1 mix is the best way to go with a Lt/Rt. As for Dolby E, it's a great way to deliver 5.1 and Lt/Rt, however it's another pass to encode it to your Master and it's pretty pricey. I did a huge mix in 5.1 and was able to a/b the original tracks to the Dolby E tracks and they sounded excellent! If you can get your clients to pay for your new toys, do it! I would say if it was me, do it via plug ins. That way it's always there when you open up the session in the future. The SRS plug in is being tweaked as we speak and should be out within 90 days. It can also decode Dolby Pro Logic One. Here is a link showing some places that use it
http://www.srslabs.com/BroadcastPartners.asp
As for your clients, if you can give them something (Surround Mixing) that your competition can't and do it for no extra charge, who do you think is going to get the work? There is no reason to not at least mix in Surround such as Lt/Rt. The client is able to play it back on any Stereo TV and it will sound fine (assuming the mixer knows what they are doing). Start experimenting with some recent work you've done and get your surround chops happening then when a paying client comes along you'll be ready to rock!! How about this, do it to a past show/spot that you mixed and call the client in to hear the difference. Once they hear what it would sound like, they will want it the next time you work together.
Take care,

[scott waz]

Thanks Marti. Saying you "could probably answer my question" may be the understatement of the year.

To the rest of you out there mixing TV spots in surround, I posed this question to initiate a good dialogue on how to get the rest of the world to demand what is the best thing to happen to picture since color. I feel like a kid again sitting down in front of my mixing desk. I have begun my personal quest in this area.

I think the timing of the technologies at our disposal is ripe with rewards. How about you?

Scott Waz
President
www.audiopostphila.com

[john a]

Hi - I'm a neighbor of Scott's ( though I prefer to think of us as colleagues rather than competitors). 'Sup Scott.
I'm just curious about a part of Marti's post. The sentence about offering surround mixing, and doing it at
no extra charge, in particular. I wonder if that is a perception of what's going to fly in the marketplace- that is,
do you feel clients won't pay for it. Or is it that you see it as a legit loss-leader type of value added benefit.
Or maybe it will take so much longer to do a surround mix that there's no reason to charge extra for it.
My feeling is that we SHOULD charge more for added functionality like surround capability. I mean, I love my
job as much as the next mixer, but really....it's about getting paid, too. If there's going to be a legitimate demand for surround mixing, there should be a benefit to meeting that demand. Which I suppose could just be - being the one who gets all the surround work. Except it's not really that difficult to get setup for surround, so if everyone does it and no one charges more for it, everyone's upgraded, and no one's getting anything for it except the clients who are getting something for nothing. And they have all the money.
Any thoughts on that ?

best regards
John Anthony
http://www.majaaudiogroup.com

[dr sound]

John,
You bring up some very fine points. It doesn't take any longer in my book to do Surround, however I've been doing it for a while. It may take a little longer while one gets a handle on it and learns by doing. Yes it costs more to outfit a room to do surround. Will you be able to charge more? If you can and it gets you even more clients, then good for you. I just know that everyone in L.A. is a mixer, even if they have little experience in the art. It has driven down prices. One must be able to give their clients something that your competitors can't and Surround might be that item. I am suggesting that if you can offer something extra to your client base that differentiates you from your competition (even if it's friendly) than one must consider it. Add to that, it's fun to mix in Surround! Hopefully you will be able to charge and learn and be further ahead of your competition. I've got a feeling Philly's gonna have some great Surround Mixes coming from there!

[The Chinese]

Marti-

what happenin' Bud?
Here's what I'm not clear on here- Does the SRS stuff create a Dolby compatible matrix output that will decode with consumer equipment, or is it proprietary? If so, then great, it makes a lot of sense. If not, then the book's still out. Also, PLII is beginning to make some inroads into the Post Pro world...Dolby just announced another upgrade to the PLII infrastructure that creates a 7.1 audio experience from a 2channel matrixed track or a 5.1 track. This will be interesting to see how this affects how we mix. It's called PLIIx.
-Todd A.

[Noiz2]

I can answer part of your question. The SRS box creates a ProLogic II compatable metrixed LtRt. ProLogic (I) will also dematrix the signal and of course the SRS decoder will work also. At the moment the box only encodes LCRLsCsRs and Lfe so 6.1.

[ashish]

Hi!

Will it be possible to integrate this plugin into Protools?
I'm using Ver 5.2 on G4 733mhz

Thank you
Ashish

[scott waz]

Hey John!

How funny to see your post. Having never met you (only Michael), our paths never seem to cross: Addy's, GPFO parties, even George H's Digidesign demonstraion at your studio; we have never said hello in person. Thank you for calling us colleagues. While I may have my own opinions about other places in Philly, I have always praised your work. Out loud even. I respect your long history in this town and all that you have contributed. In 15 years, I hope that the same could be said about myself. Thats what drives me through the long hours of maintaining a facility. We also share some of the same clients and whenever I hear that some part of a job is being completed by you or Michael, I never feel disappointment.

Is there enough love in the room?

Well, I think you bring up some good points as well. But considering the market we are in, I have enough trouble fielding phone calls from those who are shopping for a studio and will do it on price alone, thinking they will be in better hands with a studio charging only $15-$25 less per hour. Not realizing that all of the hidden extras associated with the job ends up costing them more in the end. I sell on value, experience and my strong opinion that I am the best to work with. That doesn't always work either, then what? I always feel that if they are looking for the bargain basement rate of say $100/hr (gasp!), they better be bringing me enough work for a month. Thats why I have two rooms and another engineer. Thats why I turn away many people, because at a certain rate, the job barely pays minimum wage and usually comes with tons of headaches. I'm sure you have found that those who don't even ask the rate are your best clients. They are on the ball and know how NY costs twice as much. Heck Pittsburgh is getting $150-$300 an hour. I almost fell out of my chair when heard two studios quote me $300 PLUS ISDN. I hung up politely, scratching my head asking what are we doing wrong in Philly? Unlike Marti and his LA/Burbank area, its not supply (suppliers), there are only 5 studios worth mentioning right in Center City Philadelphia.

So its demand.

Because that mentality exists, I agree with Marti about not charging more for surround than whatever your current sync to pic rate is, for example. I don't believe there is a "Get rich introductory make all your money back in a few months period" associated with surround like there was with say ISDN, where a premium could be charged because I bought this $12,000 APT box several years ago and it changed the landscape of what was possible for ad agencies wanting top notch voices from LA or NY. Surround, as Marti describes, is easy to mix in. I love it. Spot mixing in surround is so much easier than a feature film, too. I also didn't have to spend more than $50,000. The investment was very affordable, today. 10 years ago? Expensive. No demand. Except Burbank. I also believe that the key to the success of surround is to treat it like its as common as a stereo mix. A given. I think that that is only possible TODAY. 2004.

I also think it will take people like you and me to promote it. Do I want more clients to mix in surround with me than you, of course. But getting some of the higher profile clients we both work with to be thankful that that is what we are doing for them is the ultimate goal. Our market has shrunk. Can you name 5 agencies billing more than $10 million? And how many Pharmaceutical companies do you know that want their internal communication job mixed in surround? In the end, it will still come down to creativity. Currently, we all have the same tools and most clients of worth choose a studio based on whether their creative vision is fulfilled at a particular studio. Of course I can't wait for all automobiles to have a surround decoder installed. Radio spots may even become fun again.

In closing, I want to tell you that I heard about your solution to fix those video facilities who package the sound mix in for free just to get the video job. I would love to put an AVID in my place and charge nothing but an audio mix. And that is another reason why we probably won't be able to charge more for surround mixing. Places you and I know will probably give it away. Hopefully those audio engineers will feel guilty about striking at the heart of what is good and right about the audio world we work in. At least maybe they'll lose some sleep over it. Ya think?

Let the uphill battle begin!

Lets have lunch. I've been to your place. Come over to mine. Next week?

Regards,

Scott Waz
www.audiopostphila.com

[john a]

scott wrote:

In closing, I want to tell you that I heard about your solution to fix those video facilities who package the sound mix in for free just to get the video job.

Ha! Perhaps I should be more discrete.....


Well, Scott, you've assesed a our situation pretty thoroughly, I'd say. And Marti's observation that "everyone's
a mixer" sort of bookends things. Sometimes you need to go to the next level just to stay competitive. Once
upon a time only a couple of facilities had big sfx resources on hard disk with searchable databases, and it was really expensive to do. Now it's some virtually disposable firewire drives and a few pieces of software. It's expected that you'll provide that functionality. So the move to surround may happen that way as well.

Lunch is a great idea - next week might be problematic, but let's touch base then.

best
John A