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  #101  
Old 02-14-2005, 07:07 PM
N-G-NEER N-G-NEER is offline
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Default Re: UPDATED Room Calibration for Film and TV Post

Hi Marty,

have you heard from Georgia? I have been off the DUC for a few weeks as we moved to FL and I am setting up a company here. Georgia not being here is like you not being here you two folks are the best.

Sincerely,

Neil Samuels
N-G-NEER
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  #102  
Old 02-16-2005, 01:10 AM
funkcity funkcity is offline
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Default Re: UPDATED Room Calibration for Film and TV Post

Hi Marty!!
D'addario is playin with Nuendo. Hmm...

Don't you just wonder why people get so damned confused by this topic?
Is it that meters are not the same?
Standards are switched/updated/ignored etc...? or even rewritten to compensate for a manufacturer's mistakenly manufactured pink noise generator?

Companies who got it right at one point in time have a new engineering team who never understood Pink noise levels, Sound Pressure Level, Average vs. Peak meters, generally accepted practices etc...?

I assume that all new products will have a pink noise generator that if used on it's own will ALWAYS be advertized as the wrong level!

Example:
To achieve an average level on the Dolby DMU meter (assuming the unit is aligned at -20 dBFS)
The Harrison MPC4-D Pink Noise must be set for -12.3 dB !
The Tascam DM-7.1 pink noise is wrong
The Dolby CP-200 series was wrong until modified by Dolby.

ProTools has got it wrong but I believe with my help I can make them a cal CD based on INDUSTRY STANDARD COMMON PRACTICE which should help clear the fog.

There is a lot of history here folks and a
lot of room for argument and interpretation.

I got beat up on this big time last year at the hand of a brilliant lady named KK-Profit.
It was her absolute belief that SPL should measure at 83. She wasn't wrong as the newest SMPTE recommended practice championed/authored by Tom Holman specified exactly that.

However...
The Hollywood community, The Motion Picture Academy, Dolby, DTS, Sony, Fox, Disney, Paramount, Warner Brothers, Ascent, Universal were and STILL ARE on the "OLD" standard. And that standard relied on a mechanical VU meter, the Dolby DS-4, or a led style VU averaging meter.

It is for film:
-20 dBFS = 0VU = +4 dBu = 85 dBC SPL for L,C,R, 82 dBC SPL for LS, RS and on a Real Time Analyzer 10 dB of inband gain above the center channel from 20 ~ 30 hz to 120 hz

It is for TV, DVD:
-20 dBFS = 0VU = +4 dBu = 85 dBC SPL for L,C,R,LS,RS and on a Real Time Analyzer 10 dB of inband gain above the center channel from 20 ~ 30 hz to 120 hz

So maybe after I make a cal CD for Scott Wood he'll post some of the files somewhere where anyone can download.?!?
First a 1 K Tone @ -20 dBFS to check your gain structure, then a -20 VU Pink (this will look hotter than -20 due to peak meter ballistics but I will record using multiple averaging VU-style meters.

Then you can paste it wherever you need it or make your own speaker cal sweepable SPL session.
What do y'all think?

OK I'm done!
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  #103  
Old 02-16-2005, 01:53 AM
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dr sound dr sound is offline
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Default Re: UPDATED Room Calibration for Film and TV Post

Funkcity (Jay),
I do remember the Jay/ Marti vs KK round and round. Thank goodness it's over.
Go ahead and post away. After you talk with Scott, let me know. I'll gladly put it up on "www.thedubstage.com"
You have to come by and play it at "The Dub Stage". What do think Funkcity? Sometime soon?
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  #104  
Old 02-16-2005, 11:51 AM
funkcity funkcity is offline
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Default Re: UPDATED Room Calibration for Film and TV Post

I have been requested to make a DVD setup disk for our projection engineers.
When they get a standard DVD to exhibit it is a crap shoot as to what level to set it at.
Sound familiar?

I'll make a PT 48K 24 bit session with announce
(what speaker the sound should be coming out from)tracks.
Our DVD guys will AC3 encode and author to DVD.
Marti,
The original PT session I will get to you along with the simple tone and pink file....
and the world will be a better place. ;-) Ha!
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  #105  
Old 02-16-2005, 07:53 PM
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Chief Technician Chief Technician is offline
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Default Re: UPDATED Room Calibration for Film and TV Post

Quote:

The Tascam DM-7.1 pink noise is wrong
Care to be more specific?
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  #106  
Old 02-17-2005, 01:50 PM
funkcity funkcity is offline
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Default Re: UPDATED Room Calibration for Film and TV Post

The pink noise level is incorrect compared to the -20 program reference standard.
You can (and must) adjust the PN level in the DM-7.1 menu to get it right.

I have not had my hands on a DM-7.1 in some time but as I recall the default value was way off.

Sorry I don't have the exact number.

When I finally get some files to Marti you could compare and set your own level number in the DM-7.1 that correlates to the standardized ref.
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  #107  
Old 02-17-2005, 06:47 PM
Richard Fairbanks Richard Fairbanks is offline
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Default Re: UPDATED Room Calibration for Film and TV Post

funkcity writes:
Quote:
The Hollywood community, The Motion Picture Academy, Dolby, DTS, Sony, Fox, Disney, Paramount, Warner Brothers, Ascent, Universal were and STILL ARE on the "OLD" standard. And that standard relied on a mechanical VU meter, the Dolby DS-4, or a led style VU averaging meter.
funkcity also writes
Quote:
...I can make them a cal CD based on INDUSTRY STANDARD COMMON PRACTICE which should help clear the fog.
It is certainly hard to know what to believe with so many opinions floating. As far as I am concerned, INDUSTRY STANDARD COMMON PRACTICE is exactly what The Hollywood community, The Motion Picture Academy, Dolby, DTS, Sony, Fox, Disney, Paramount, Warner Brothers, Ascent, Universal, and nearly every other person are currently doing. It is the INDUSTRY's COMMON PRACTICE.

I choose to live by Dolby's guidelines. The DSM7.1 pink noise set at -20 is the same level as Dolby's DP564 pink noise set at -20. It is the same as pink noise set to a -20dbfs reference level on my RMS average meters. Until Dolby and a host of others change their collective minds, I will do nothing different. A standard is simply what a majority of the industry defines it to be. If the definition does not match the majority of the industry's practice, then I think the definition should change, not the practice.

Flame away, but I am done here. Also, I hope this brewing argument does not take away from the merits of this otherwise helpful thread. Perhaps this entire argument should be removed from this sticky thread and made into its own.
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  #108  
Old 02-17-2005, 07:14 PM
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dr sound dr sound is offline
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Default Re: UPDATED Room Calibration for Film and TV Post

Richard and Funkcity,
On Saturday evening I am attending the C.A.S. Awards. As Secretary of the C.A.S. I am fortunate to be seated at a table with guess who? No other than Tom Holman AND Dolby! Does it get any better?
Guess what one of the topics will be?
I'll report back for those who are interested.
On a side note Funkcity (Jay) is a Cheif Engineer at a very well know Hollywood Location and is top's in his field.
I have known him since 1980. He is a very good source to rely on!
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aka dr.sound
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Like everything in life, there are no guarantees just opportunities.
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  #109  
Old 02-17-2005, 07:39 PM
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Chief Technician Chief Technician is offline
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Default Re: UPDATED Room Calibration for Film and TV Post

Quote:

On a side note Funkcity (Jay) is a Cheif Engineer at a very well know Hollywood Location and is top's in his field.
I have known him since 1980. He is a very good source to rely on!
I am not questioning Funkcity's worthiness. Given what Richard said, and Funkcity's comment, all I'm interested in is what is wrong with the DS-M7.1 pink noise.

In defense of Richard is the argument that Pro Tools has become an industry standard by becoming de-facto in nearly all facilities.

Marti, what pink noise do you use? The equivalent of the allegedly-wrong DS-M7.1?
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  #110  
Old 02-17-2005, 07:52 PM
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dr sound dr sound is offline
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Default Re: UPDATED Room Calibration for Film and TV Post

Chief,
I am just giving a little background about Funkcity. As for Pink, I am using the pink generator in the Martinsound
Multimax EX. I also have Dolby callibrate my room everytime we Printmaster. It is "on the money"!
I liked the funtionality and ease of use of the Multimax so I chose that. The Tascam came out right after my purchase. Is the Martinsound perfect, No. It just works for my way of mixing (Two man Re-Recording).
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