How to use 'Maxim' limiter ?

[nilsk]

I've got the same issue as *this* guy:

http://duc.digidesign.com/showthread.php?t=159827

... Except I can NOT find 'Maxim' in the Digirack-manual.
It's just not there. (And the links posted in the thread do not
work anymore, since this is a couple of years ago.)
There is this 'Compressor/Limiter' plug-in explained in the Digirack-
manual but 'Maxim' seems to be missing.

... Don't get me wrong, I *normally* know how to handle a
peak limiter ... 'set the ceiling to (for ex.) -0,5 dB and limiter
will limit' ... trying this with this high-class software (costs about
$400 when buying it seperately) doesn't work this way!

As I read in the thread (link above) "many people hate it because
they dont know how it works and subsequently how to use it properly
but once you use it properly it is a very good plug."

OK, so far, so good. But how DOES it work?

Can anyone explain *this* limiter (Digidesign Maxim) to me or
post a link to the manual?!
Couldn't find a separate manual either ... very strange: a limiter that
doesn't limit & a manual that doesn't explain!

This leads to: a producer that doesn't produce, I guess

Very funny ... OK, can anybody help with a link or short explanation
how to use 'Maxim'?

Best
Nils

P.S.: Please don't explain what a limiter does in general.
I know about 'ceiling', 'threshold' etc., it's all clear (normally).
I need a guide to *this* specific one ('Maxim' of Digidesign).

[spkguitar]

Originally Posted by nilsk

I can NOT find 'Maxim' in the Digirack-manual.

That's because it is not a DigiRack plugin.

It is a Digidesign plugin, but not one of the ones that comes stock with Pro Tools (if you were to only install Pro Tools, it wouldn't be there), which is what they use the term "DigiRack" for.

Maxim is a separate plugin that is now being included with some (most) systems.

You can find information about Maxim and it's use in the Digidesign Plug-Ins Guide, which should be installed by default with any extra Digidesign Plug-In and available with the rest of the documents. It can also be downloaded by going to the Maxim product page, clicking the "download" link, and selecting the guide that matches your particular Pro Tools version.

[nilsk]

Thanks, I found it!

... Wasn't expecting it to be at "Downloads".

Best
Nils

[nilsk]

I need more help on this one:

Now I read the manual and I'm using the limiter
exactly as described.

I am surprised because it is *described* as a very
normal-to-use limiter. ... The manual tells excactly
what a *LIMITER* / maximizer does and how to use ...
(I read every single word; just to check if there are
any 'Maxim-tricks' included ... but I didn't find anything
special. The description seems very logical and it's all
clear to me!)

But it just doesn't work the way it is described!


OK, here is what I did:
(Which is really simple to solve, normally ... )

1. I wrote a pop song & recorded it in ProTools.

2. Most of the tracks are Midi, and some vocal tracks.
(Midi should be handled the same as audio for a limiter
on a master track, doesn't it? ...)

3. As this is 'R&B'-style the Bass drum has to be loud.
It peaks aboout 2 to 4 dB! It's really not much!
(I tried 'Maxim' (mono) at the bass drum track, too.
Same result as on the master track).

4. I plugged in 'Maxim' to the master stereo track.
No other plug-in is plugged there.
Even sum is not clipping much. Just about 3 to 4 dB.
(Of course sound sums up a little; as it always does within
multiple instruments.)
However, it's not clipping much. Should be an *easy job* for a limiter.

5. I linked the 'threshold' and 'ceiling' (see Maxim manual)
and pulled it down to -2,2 dB. No more clipping on the master
track in ProTools. Everything was fine.

5a. Of course now my mix lost a little power. About -2,2 dB ...
... sure ... so I wanted to bring the 'power' back.

6. I 'un-linked' threshold and ceiling. Pulling down threshold
to even -2,3 dB (just to be sure ...) and slowly pushing up ceiling.
As soon as ceiling goes above -2,2 dB the master fader in
ProTools goes 'red' again!
This means, putting ceiling to (for ex.) -0,5 dB brings clips!
... Even a ceiling of -2,1 dB is clipping (which really should be
avoided even by an average limiter; ... as I wrote above this one
is 'high-class'! ... But I may not understand how to use it.)

7. I put release time to 2000 ms, just to see what happens.
=> Nothing. Master fader in ProTools still goes red.
(Of course I 'unclicked' the red several times ...
... as I said I *normally* know about limiting ...)


=> What am I doing wrong? It seems all right to me!

THIS is how to use a limiter. THIS is even how it is described
excactly in the manual. But for some reason it doesn't work
correctly.


Can anybody explain this to me!?

Best
Nils

[SKI]

Maxim is not the problem, you are clipping in stages prior to it so they are going to show when you start to use Maxim.

Repair your gain stages and make sure you are not pumping unnecessary sub frequencies where they don't need to be.

[nilsk]

Originally Posted by SKI

you are clipping in stages prior

Originally Posted by SKI

Repair your gain stages

OK, I did that now.

None of the tracks are clipping anymore.
(As I said, the bass drum was clipping about 2 dB).

Additionally I cut bass drum and toms at 50 hz; just to
be sure no "sub frequencies" coming through ...". )

I even made NONE of the single tracks clipping and then letting
the master track clip very gentle (must be about 0,2 dB or
something; I was pushing up the piano until only sum was
clipping.). ... When pluggin in 'Maxim' it still clips.


As far as I get it, 'Maxim' only works when *nothing*
is clipping! Right?

Even 0,1 dB of clipping can not be reduced
to -0,5 dB in the signal flow? ... (I'm trying to use this limiter
for some *hours* now and that's what it looks like.
As soon as any track *or* the master track goes to any
clipping, 'Maxim' is not able to avoid that, right ... ? )


Alright, so I may have to learn a 'new' thinking about a
limiter?
... As far as I *knew* a "limiter" is to *limit* tracks that
might be a little to 'hot'. (?)

... So 'Maxim' sais: "I don't want *any* clippings. If done so
I'm working fine for you as a kind of 'booster' / maximizer for
the track(s)." (?)

Is that the right way to describe the approach for this tool?


(I'm sorry to might sound ironic; I'm just trying to find out what
the approach of this tool might be ... )
- - -

So this means when I need a track like the one I'm working on
(I want a 'pushing' R & B / hip-hop bass-drum):

1. Mix everything to a level where none of the tracks
are peaking (clipping).
In this case this would mean turning every single track
down about 2 dB because bass drum is about 2 dB 'too loud'.

2. Cut every track below ... 50 hz(?) / 30 hz(?),
because Maxim doesn't like low frequencies?
(cutting below 50 hz would be a very strange approach for
a R&B bass drum track ... )

3. Pushing everything up with Maxim until the master track reaches
a level close to -0,5 dB. And Maxim will do quite a lot of upwards-
compression on every track below -0,5 dB.
(This adds quite a lot of 'limiter-sound'; ... a soft, compressed
sounding ...)
- - -

Am I getting this tool right?

=> If so, can anyone explain to me why a 'normal' limiter takes care
of clipping tracks (this is what "limiting" is about, literally, right?)
and 'Maxim' works as a 'booster' for NON-clipping tracks! (?)
(And when not clipping bringing them precisely to the
level desired; if clipping ... letting them clip).

*Confusing me*, this tool ... limiters I used to know worked
different.

Best
Nils

[77pro]

Without getting into specific details regarding limiter usage,
you don't need to push your levels so high (I assume you're working at 24 bit ??)

Keep all of your tracks no higher than -10 to -6dB max. And shoot for -3dB on your master fader.

Remember, it's not analog. You don't need to push 'into the red'. At 0 dB you've distorted your signal...there's no 'analog warmth' at those levels.

[The Dougfather]

IMHO, it's a pretty naff sounding plugin, if you wan't quality check out Massey's mastering plugin.

[77pro]

Originally Posted by The Dougfather

IMHO, it's a pretty naff sounding plugin, if you wan't quality check out Massey's mastering plugin.

Yeah nilsk, you might want to check it out. (Massey L2007 mastering limiter)
It's a free download, extremely easy to use..and it sounds fantastic !!

Never looked back since I discovered that little gem

[nilsk]

Thanks!

'Maxim' is doing fine now.

I was just used to mix 'as loud as possible' because I
knew some plugins (non-ProTools) that added a *really*
naff sound when doing upwards-compression ...

Maxim sounds very good to me.
There might be even better or 'more fancy' plugins.
... So I followed your advice ...

- - -

I tried installing 'Massey' which Digidesign claims to be
ready for Leopard ...
... and this thread sais so, too:
http://duc.digidesign.com/showthread.php?t=213762

... The plugins even all go to the right Digidesign/Plugins
Folder (Library etc.) ... and of course I quit ProTools before installing.
(I even did a restart after installing, to be sure they
are available ... and they are not. (not listed in any of the categories /
drop down menu that appears in ProTools when plugging a plugin in)

... AND I made shure to download the right plugins.
(I'm using MacBook pro 2,2 GHz, intel; leopard 10.5; ProTools
LE 7.4.2)

... so I downloaded Massey "Mac OSX => Intel Pro Tools 7x" ...
(right?). (This is a bundle: vt3, TapeHead, CT4, L2007).

=> ... Any suggestions why this doesn't work?


& Thanks again for the hints concerning 'Maxim' ...

Best
Nils