LE vs TDM mixes, once again

[davidp158]

I'm sure this has been discussed, but I'm looking for some insight on how to get MUCH better mixes on my LE system.

I recently recorded some tracks at a TDM studio and brought them to my home studio (002 with PTLE) to do some overdubs. The TDM studio used a few compressor plug ins I don't have, but all other plug ins (Waves) loaded up along with the TDM session file.

I realize that the converters are going to differ somewhat, but for the life of me I can not get nearly as much high frequencies or clarity in my mixes. Its not a subtle thing at all...its a huge difference. Its like there is a high shelf at 8k down 10 db or more...ugh! The stereo field is also very narrow. After I bounce to disc, the tone and stereo field are just dead and lifeless.

I did use the Waves L1+ on my stereo master, and wonder if this is the culpret. I never exceed 2-3 db of gain reduction.

Could there be something in my setup that is causing this major shift in tone? I always suspected my mics or preamps to be the cause of this dull sound, but now I'm concerned that the LE mixer is much worse that I had imagined.

Any thoughts would be appreciated,

Dave

[RinnyTin]

I realize that the converters are going to differ somewhat, but for the life of me I can not get nearly as much high frequencies or clarity in my mixes. Its not a subtle thing at all...its a huge difference. Its like there is a high shelf at 8k down 10 db or more...ugh! The stereo field is also very narrow. After I bounce to disc, the tone and stereo field are just dead and lifeless.

I did use the Waves L1+ on my stereo master, and wonder if this is the culpret. I never exceed 2-3 db of gain reduction.

Could there be something in my setup that is causing this major shift in tone?

I suspect your D-to-A converters, monitors, and the room you're in have a lot more to do with your percieved change than the LE mixer. The limiter shouldn't produce a dramatic tonal change. Does the problem persist in high quality headphones?

[davidp158]

Certainly I expect that recording tracks in my home studio envrionment will not be as good as the TDM studio, which has been acoustics, better mics and outboard gear. However, the problem I'm hearing is in bouncing their session file to disc and hearing a BIG loss in high end and stereo field. (no tracking done at my studio)

I belive their TDM system is a MIX system, and doesn't have the newer Digidesign 96k converters. I'm sure there's a difference between the MIX system and my low end 002 converters, but I didn't expect it to be sooooo bad. I'm hoping that there may be something else I can do to compensate for this huge difference in tone loss.

What I'm asking is why their session file sounds so dull when I bounce to disc. When I take their sessions and just bounce to disc, the high end is dramatically dull and lifeless.

I have always been frustrated by the lack of clarity in my mixes, but assumed that was due to my limited skills, mics/pres and room acoustics. Now that I've heard the difference between a bounce between these two systems, I'm wondering if the 002 converters and mixing with the LE mixer is a bigger part of the problem.

Any suggestions on tests that I can do to diagnose this issue? What sort of degradation could be happening when bouncing to disc that I should address? I know that a better D/A converter would help me monitor my mixes better, but I don't know of any gear that will help bouncing to disc within my 002/LE system. Would a sync clock help the frequency response?

Any comments on this would be appreciated. I'm quite baffled by this and would like to bring the sound quality of my 002/LE system up a LOT, but wonder if its possible.

thanks,
Dave

[davidp158]

bump....


Sorry if this is an old topic, but I'm hoping someone will point me to a thread with some info on this issue.

thanks,
Dave

[O.G. Killa]

Hi Dave,

I've had the opposite experience. I usually find that my mixes on LE systems sound better than on TDM systems because of the way the two different mix busses handle latency (except for 6.4 PTHD which sounds great because of the ADC).

First off...I am in the middle of doing some tests that I plan to either turn into Digi or post here. Basically I've found that the mix engine does something different when you bounce to disc as opposed to when you record and playback. Try creating a new track, Set it's input to the digital input, with a SPDIF cable send the digital out of the 001 back into the digital in on the 001. Mute the new track and then record enable it (if you don't mute it you will get feedback). Hit record and record your mix to this new track. If you compare that to a bounce to disc'd file of the same mix you'll notice the digital in/out sounds DRAMATICALLY better. Try doing that and see if it fixes your problems or not.

I'm trying to figure out in what scenarios BTD does this and in what scenarios it doesn't because digi claims BTD and playback/record should be identical...but what i've found is that they are not. And when I align them side by side and phase invert one of them they do not completely cancel out...

But anyway...Some more information is needed to really assess your problem. Here are some questions...

1) Did the studio do a BTD for you while you were there? Are you comparing their BTD on CD or as a file?
2) if yes to #1, then did you try to BTD the same tracks/layout that they BTD'd and see if it sounds different?
3) Are you comparing them side by side on several sound systems? On one system? On the same systems?
4)turn off ALL your plugins (Cmd + Cntrl + Click) and DO NOT use any busses. Assign the output of every track to the first output pair. does it still sound bad?
5) are you using any hardware inserts at all?

[studio slave]

hi david,im having probs with bouncing to disk and having reduction in sound quality as well.im running pro tools le 5.1,on the file you are bouncing,you have to put a dither pug in on your master volume track,this turns the 24 bit session into 16 bit ,in order to burn a cd,if you dont 8 bits of that file,will be lost in the ether!aaaaalso i always choose a aiff file to bounce to ,as mp3 compresses the crap out of the session,but the probs im now facing is ,the cd i burn of a session sounds great on a different system(home hi fi,or car stereo)but when i play the track either on a cd ,or dirrect from itunes(the cd playing thru itunes also)the bounced music lacks depth and clarity.But as isaid it sounds ok thru another system.my monitors are good(fostex pm1 s )and comercial cds sound ok when i play thru the same rig????????i hope that ive been of help,and in return if you could give me advice then damn it we would both be happy .lolthese final parts of mastering are driving me mad.and i thought the hardest thing was coming up with the tunes !!!please digi design help us ,god help us,shhhhhiiiiiiitttttttttt,welcome to the digtal workd

[rufmanj]

The first question I would ask is, do you have the bounce preferences set to "tweak head?"

Are you bouncing at the same bit rate or are you going from 24 bit to 16 bit?

Is the "dither added" box checked under preferences? (You may be dithering twice).

More info is need, I think, unless I missed the info.

-rufman

[love666]

"The Conversion Quality Preference determines the quality of sample rate conversion used when converting and importing audio into a session. There are five possible settings, ranging from Low to Tweak Head."

from the FM

[davidp158]

Thanks for the replies. I'll give these thoughts a try and report back. I've been kind of busy and this is my first chance to check the DUC and reply.

I spent a lot of time this weekend and tried a few test mixes without the L1+. I'm suspicious that it was getting overloaded (and not monitored properly), which was rounding off some high end. The new BTD's are still not great, and only slightly clearer than before, so I'm not sure.

I found that if I take a 24 bit BTD, place the L1+ on the stereo audio track (not the master fader) and bounce to 16 bit, there isn't nearly as much degradation in sound quality as if I bounce the multi-track session file to 16 bit (even without the L1+). That seems to suggest the lack of dithering could degrade the sound quality.

Hard to say, but I'll give your suggestions a try, and do more testing.

regards,
Dave

[fatdaddy]

How many audio channels and plugins are you running ? I have found that when you tax your CPU on a bounce to disk with many plugs and a some sort of Mastering plugs on the Out Put, it will sound and react different on 2 consecutve bounces. Auto tune will not track the same, etc. Audio Suite some stuff and do the 2 track digital transfer via spdif and it should be more cosistent. Your cpu will have more free thinking cycles to devote to your tunes