Digitizing Vinyl

[jcmjrt]

I have a vinyl collection that I would like to digitize to hard drive. I already have an excellent analog system from TT to phono amp (I understand the RIAA curve), ibook g4 and 500GB hard drive. I have been putting my CDs to hard drive already in Apple Lossless format with iTunes. I'm not a musician and don't need microphone inputs, etc but I do need an excellent analog to digital converter as the QUALITY is what's important to me. iTunes, playlists, etc sure makes it simple to listen to music when you are busy but I want it as close to vinyl sound as possible.

I've been looking for a good analog to digital converter and have found the Mbox2 Pro which has RCA jacks for a phono preamp input. I'm looking to buy something soon but haven't ordered yet. I realize the questions are probably pretty basic for someone used to digitizing music but I'm pretty ignorant so far and trying to do it right/purchase appropriate equipment the first time.

1. Is this a good choice for me? Or would you recommend anything else for what I want to accomplish?

2. Does the ibook automatically configure to accept sound input from the FW port or does one have to change settings to accomplish that?

3. What format am I recording to the hard drive from the Mbox2 Pro and how do I go about getting it into apple lossless on iTunes? When I put a CD in iTunes automatically asks me if I want to rip the CD but I doubt that's going to happen with a FW input from the Mbox.

4. Can I record all of the songs on the side and then split the tracks or do I need to record each track individually? Additional software or will the Mbox2 Pro software do that?

5. What kind of settings would I use in order to get the best recording quality?

Thanks for your help.

[M.Brane]

If you're looking for the best converters I would suggest you look elsewhere. Apogee, Lavry, etc. make some good stuff. If you have a really nice analog setup the M-Box is not even close to doing it justice.

[Naagzh]

Agreed, the Mbox 2 Pro's converters are less than pro-quality, but good in their own right. Ideally, you would want a phono preamp and external converter (like the Apogee Rosetta 200), connected to a Firewire interface with digital, post A/D connectivity (ADAT or S/PDIF inputs).

But this is alot of coin. I would recommend instead that you do buy the Mbox 2 Pro and promptly get it modified from Black Lion Audio, which will take the Mbox's sonic integrity into the professional realm for only a few hundred bucks (though it will void the warranty). When you're done, sell it on eBay.

Once you get this set up, you'll want to leave some headroom to avoid peaks and clipping, as there will be considerable dynamic range in older recordings. If, after the transfer, things are too quiet in general, you can use the Massey Mastering Limiter (search it here) to "regain" some loudness (sort of an in-house "re-mastering"). But it's quite transparent and easy to use.

Also, I've had success with the RM Decrackler if the pops and crackles get out of hand. Paid $40, IIRC.

Good luck!

[The Dougfather]

1. Is this a good choice for me? Or would you recommend anything else for what I want to accomplish?

Really don't think your gonna benefit from the Mbox Pro, the pre's i think are the same for all MBox's so you may as well go the Mbox mini and get some RCA > 1/4 Jack converter cables. Save the cash and go for nice plugs, i would.

2. Does the ibook automatically configure to accept sound input from the FW port or does one have to change settings to accomplish that?

Pro Tools systems only launch if they detect the hardware, it effectively acts as a security dongle. Once PT is launched just select the corresponding inputs on your interface and your good to go.

3. What format am I recording to the hard drive from the Mbox2 Pro and how do I go about getting it into apple lossless on iTunes? When I put a CD in iTunes automatically asks me if I want to rip the CD but I doubt that's going to happen with a FW input from the Mbox.

You record in to Pro Tools using uncompressed file formats like wav or AIFF, iTunes can play these file formats no problem. If you want to re-rip the files to apple lossless, provided thats the format that is configured in iTunes as the default format, you'll have a CTL > Click option to rip to this format in iTunes.

4. Can I record all of the songs on the side and then split the tracks or do I need to record each track individually? Additional software or will the Mbox2 Pro software do that?

You can just record the vinyl each side at a time, you can split it up in to whats called regions, basically sections and bounce them out one at a time.

5. What kind of settings would I use in order to get the best recording quality?

i Wouldn't worry about 96KHz sample rates, i would be inclined to go for 24 bit recording though, achievable from Mbox's, you just need to dither the files back down to 16-bit when your done, do a search for dither. Additionally coming from vinyl take a look at some noise reduction plugs to get shot of his and crackle from vinyl, i think Digi's DIN-R does this but i've never use it.

Cheers

[jcmjrt]

I looked at the Apogee 200 but it doesn't have RCA jacks (I know that I could use adapters so that could be overcome) or and this is the bigger problem a USB or Firewire connection to go to the computer. I'm not sure how I would overcome that...must be a way, I just don't know it. The Lavry website didn't show the back but I didn't see either connection listed either.
How would you connect from the Apogee or Lavry to an ibook?

Thanks for the info on the Black Lion upgrades. I would prefer to buy something that did what I wanted out of the box as I could return it/more easy to recoup money later...but I might go that direction as it seems difficult to find something with the right connections.

and lastly, thanks for the helpful answers to the software questions.

If there are any other ideas/comments, I'd love to hear them.

[Carl Kolchak]

There's "professional" and then there is Professional.

I don't mean to patronize or cause offense, but judging purely on some of the questions you're asking, I think you'd be very happy with the level of "professionalism" offered by the Mbox 2 Pro.

If on the other hand you want audiophile standard Professionalism, then I think the amount of money and time involved would be better spent on re-purchasing the available albums on CD, and having a Pro Facility transfer any obsolete vinyl.

The other option is one of the turn-tables that has a built in USB interface, though I can't personally vouch for their quality, they do offer 78 rpm.

One good thing about the Mbox 2 Pro is that it has a built in RIAA pre-amp, so you can connect the outputs of your turn-table directly to the interface.

If you choose another interface, obviously you would need to come out of the line outputs of an external RIAA pre-amp first.

I hope that helps you.

[M.Brane]

I looked at the Apogee 200 but it doesn't have RCA jacks (I know that I could use adapters so that could be overcome) or and this is the bigger problem a USB or Firewire connection to go to the computer. I'm not sure how I would overcome that...must be a way, I just don't know it. The Lavry website didn't show the back but I didn't see either connection listed either.
How would you connect from the Apogee or Lavry to an ibook?

All you need to get from the ADC to the iBook is a simple 2 channel interface with S/PDIF. There are a few options for this that are relatively cheap like the M-Audio Transit. Kind of a bummer that you have no PC card slot since there are good all-in-one solutions for that from Digigram, and Metric Halo.

The Pro Tools software is pretty much overkill for importing vinyl too. All you really need is a good 2-track mastering app like Bias Peak. De-noising plugs are of dubious value IMHO. Usually by the time you get rid of the noise you've also managed to kill off most of the top-end in the process, and added artifacts in it's place.

[jcmjrt]

Carl you are patronizing - I stated at the top that I have an excellent phono system and understand the RIAA curve. Apparently you don't know vinyl but the last thing in the world that I would ever consider is some POS all-in-one TT. Vinyl I know and to be good, it's typically expensive. I like good music and appreciate audio quality. Digital is what I don't know with all its myriad format and connection issues. I do know that many CDs were very poorly digitized and that it would not take a great deal to better them so I think that I'll struggle along figuring out the process and am pretty sure that I'll end up with that better product.

You, however, did tell me something useful and for that I thank you - that the Mbox2 Pro has a built in phono amp. I diidn't know that and thought that the jacks were for connectivity from a phono amp. I don't want some super cheapy phono amp in the line so that kills that one.

M-Brane, I think that I'll call Apogee and maybe Lavry and see how they recommend getting out to a USB or Firewire port. Maybe the M-audio transit is the answer or...who knows...but it does seem that at least they start off with a good ADC. Thanks.

[Naagzh]

You, however, did tell me something useful and for that I thank you - that the Mbox2 Pro has a built in phono amp. I diidn't know that and thought that the jacks were for connectivity from a phono amp. I don't want some super cheapy phono amp in the line so that kills that one.

The upgrade from Black Lion improves the Mbox 2 Pro's phono amp in addition to the other benefits (A/D, wordclock, etc.).

Would anyone here recommend doing the transfers at 16 bits? The obvious benefit is that you could separate the regions, and export as WAV or AIFF. No bouncing, dithering, muss, or fuss. We all know how 24 bits offers excellent noise floor, dynamic range, and so on, but we're not multi-tracking a full band. Plus, most (if not all) of the source material is already mastered. With a good A/D converter and clock in the chain, 16 bits ought to sound just fine.

Heck, it would be worth the time to transfer a song at both dit depths and compare them on your iPOD, car, and home stereo. Bouncing each song down one at a time takes alot of time (about 40 minutes per record). And that's AFTER you spent 40 minutes doing the initial transfer.

M.Brane - I think at least one de-noising plug would be good to have on hand. You're right, they usually end up taking out some high end (which you can try to mask with a very small and broad EQ boost), but if the pops are real bad, then it's probably better to make the darn songs listenable. Sometimes two de-noising plugs in series with mild settings are more effective than one with severe settings.

[Carl Kolchak]

Carl you are patronizing

That was never the intent, and I apologize if that's how I came across.

I stated at the top that I have an excellent phono system and understand the RIAA curve.

Some would consider a 1210 through a Vestax an excellent phono system, in which case the Mbox 2 Pro would probably suffice.

On the other hand, if you've spent in the order of $7000 on a Sovereign or Orbe you might consider anything less than DSD or MLP inadequate.

Apparently you don't know vinyl

I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion.

...the last thing in the world that I would ever consider is some POS all-in-one TT.

Like I said, I can't personally vouch for their quality, but if this helps :

Here's one by Stanton

And here are a bunch of others that may well all fit into the POS category

I do know that many CDs were very poorly digitized and that it would not take a great deal to better them so I think that I'll struggle along figuring out the process and am pretty sure that I'll end up with that better product.

True enough that back in the 80's, some of the first generation of CD's were poorly digitized, in part due to lesser quality AD converters and in part down to inexperience with sufficient headroom and inter-sample peaks - those CD's have long since been replaced.

If you're talking about archiving the only existing copy of a recording from a shellac pressing for example, then yes - that's as close to the source material as you're ever going to get.

But any contemporary vinyl (and as you no doubt know, not all vinyl pressings are made equal) that you digitize is going to be at least two generations worse off than its CD counterpart, which will have been digitized directly from the wax cylinder / wire / 1/4 inch master / 2 inch session tapes (or taken from a Digital source) and other than through loudspeakers, not left the digital domain thereafter.

I'm not telling you these things to rub your nose in it!

I'm telling you this because I would hate for you to spend a not inconsiderable amount of money, and subsequently a huge amount of time in the process, only to feel disappointed that the results didn't warrant the amount of time and money you had spent on them.

The impression I got from your initial post was that you were simply trying to copy your existing record collection to your computer without the tracks being compromised by MPEG / ATRAC compression.

If you could be a little more specific about the fidelity you are hoping to achieve and give some details about your existing turn-table and preamp, perhaps we can help you decide if the Mbox 2 Pro is adequate and whether or not front end from Apogee, or the like, is overkill.

If you do decide to take the task on yourself and regardless of what hardware you decide upon, Pro Tools (as a software solution) is the wrong choice.

Your best bet in my opinion would be Wavelab, as you can record at 24bit / 44.1k (or higher bit depth / sample rate if you so choose) and directly create a dithered 16bit 44.1k cd - or just render the files for i-tunes from there. The only "real-time" concern you have is digitizing the vinyl initially.

Wavelab doesn't support RTAS plugins, but as you're just getting started, I don't suppose you have bought any in the meantime.

It does support VST and Direct-X, which are included with the Waves Restoration bundle if you need to remove crackle / hum / noise etc and it also includes a rather basic crackle removal plugin.

I sincerely hope that is of help to you!