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  #21  
Old 12-22-2004, 01:39 PM
delphypop delphypop is offline
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Default Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f

Quote:
Actually, there is at least one advantage to the iLok, and that's that it allows you to easily use plugins on several different computers. I like that. And I've found it much easier to use than challenge/response authorizations.
That is true, the portability of plugins authorisations is an advantage, but at the expense of plan old vanilla variety one rig usage.
Its cool that you can use your rig in Antarctica or Mars if you want, but I and most others just want to get our own rigs going. So its a spin off benefit to the upper few percent who are lucky enough to jetset around mixing at exotic locations, at the expense of the average user. now where have I seen that logic used before?
I simply want to run my software, software I have already paid for in a trouble free and transparent way, anything after that is a bonus. portable plugin authorrisation is indeed a cute feature, but I don't need it and if I did then perhaps they should sell this as an addition feature targeted at those travelling and indemand jetseting people who could obviously afford it.

Quote:
yours mine and everyone's ilok is going to fail at some stage and we're all going to have to deal with it. and we're all going to have to pay for that maintenance.
I don't think that's true. How do you know that "everyone's" iLok is going to fail? I have a few of them, and I haven't had to pay anything for mine yet, and my oldest one has been up and running for years.
-Duardo

[/QUOTE]

go and have a look at the construction of them again. maybe you got a nice chrome encased one but my rig came with a light plastic one, and if you are moving from rig to rig, or merely moving your rig to different locations as I do sometimes, you're going to have to remove it, store it, plug it back in etc, its going to be subject to stress, it is going to wear, and sooner or later it is going to fail.

now thats fine for a piece of hardware to fail, nothing lasts forever, I don't have a problem with that, but seeing as its someone else's security protection (ie you're doing someone else a favour by running this thing) surely they should do all the hard yards to make that system up keep transparent.

that would include not letting a third party bleed you for cash,
zero down time as mandatory and expected, (not as a bought and paid for bonus),
and flick out some gold plated keys or something, sheesh I don't know, just do something to repay the favour the customer is doing them.

bells and whistles is sweet but lets get the basics right first eh?
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  #22  
Old 12-22-2004, 01:47 PM
Robert U Robert U is offline
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Default Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f

Quote:
I have 2 blank iLok's sitting around. My primary (fully loaded) iLok has ZDT. I have one iLok for Waves (as they have their own system). So, for $30/year I don't worry about iLok failures. Ever. No issues. Problem solved. No bitching, no headaches, no worries.

What's that worth?
Thinking like that would just benefit a company that makes a crap quality product. They would sell twice as many iloks and not bother to develop it more. Why should they?

-Robert
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  #23  
Old 12-22-2004, 02:48 PM
delphypop delphypop is offline
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Default Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f

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Quote:
[IMO, the challenge/response systems implemented by companies like Native Instruments and Spectrasonics are VASTLY better than the iLok.
Lee,

Although we must agree to disagree on this, if you travel and need to being your tools with you, as many of us do, you will HATE challenge/response.

If you have had the pleasure of a CPU migration recently, you will HATE challenge/response.

I can jump to other studios, bring my dongle on the airplane, work on someone else's rig, and never worry that the other system doesn't have my tools.
Thats a special needs feature that benefits you sure, but its an add on, not the core issue of merely getting your software to run in a transparent fashion. moving round is sweet, but not at the expense of just simply getting one system to run, in a stable and transparent way.

surely the mobile authorisation is something completely different from merely getting a software authorised and running.
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  #24  
Old 12-22-2004, 04:19 PM
Duardo Duardo is offline
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Default Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f

Quote:
yet under Ilok you pay directly to a third party (Ilok) to protect and maintain that protection, and they use that position to charge you, the end user and hike the price up.
How do we pay them to protect and maintain that protection? I've never given a cent directly to iLok. All of my iLoks came with software I purchased, and I have not purchased ZDT.

Of course we pay for copy protection...we would even if the manufacturers didn't use the iLok. You just seem to be bothered that you may on occasion have to pay the company that manages the copy protection directly.

Quote:
no ones denying that the portable authorisation is a sweet feature, but that shouldn't be the primary purpose of the key. its to get the software running on one system, and it should'nt cost the user an ongoing expense.
It doesn't cost the end user an ongoing expense. If you're paying for ZDT, you're basically paying insurance, in case your iLok goes down. You're not paying for the copy protection itself. You don't have to have it. If your iLok goes down it will get taken care of. It may just take a few days, or you may have to contact all of the plugin manufacturers directly. Doesn't seem like a huge cost to pay to avoid that inconvenience if something were to go wrong.

If you're having to pay the fee if you have a problem, you're paying for technical support. That's very common. And as others have mentioned, it's a rare event that someone's actually charged for it. I had a technical issue that they took care of and I wasn't charged.

Quote:
I don't mind ilok sticking around if digi makes efforts to cover the maintainance and costs of it and perhaps even takes away the power from ilok corp.
In my case, they have...the iLok was part of the package that came with my HD system. But why should they have to pay for additional "maintenance" for plugins that they didn't manufacture? Again, if anyone has to pay for "maintenance" at all. I haven't had to.

Quote:
Its cool that you can use your rig in Antarctica or Mars if you want, but I and most others just want to get our own rigs going. So its a spin off benefit to the upper few percent who are lucky enough to jetset around mixing at exotic locations, at the expense of the average user. now where have I seen that logic used before?
I don't know, but I'm not talking about the jetsetters (and for some reason, I doubt those guys are complaining in any case). I have two computers in my studio, and it's nice to be able to switch plugins between machines. And working at several different studios in town, or among bandmates, isn't an uncommon scenario either. But aren't we in the TDM forum anyhow? If you can afford to purchase a TDM system, is the expense really a big issue?

Quote:
go and have a look at the construction of them again. maybe you got a nice chrome encased one but my rig came with a light plastic one, and if you are moving from rig to rig, or merely moving your rig to different locations as I do sometimes, you're going to have to remove it, store it, plug it back in etc, its going to be subject to stress, it is going to wear, and sooner or later it is going to fail.
I'm sure our iLoks are identical. And now you're making it sound like you're one of the elite you were just talking about...sounds like you do take advantage of its other features.

If you're really concerned, get one of those little USB extenders and leave it plugged into that. Or leave it plugged into your USB hub and just unplug that.

I have a bunch of microphones in my studio I plug in and unplug on a regular basis. I don't think that the concept of taking good care of a relatively small, relatively valuable piece of equipment is a difficult one.

Quote:
Thats a special needs feature that benefits you sure, but its an add on, not the core issue of merely getting your software to run in a transparent fashion. moving round is sweet, but not at the expense of just simply getting one system to run, in a stable and transparent way.
Again, the iLok is the most stable and transparent copy protection scheme I've seen yet. If you're really so opposed to the iLok, though, why not just use plugins from companies like Waves and Antares who don't require it?

-Duardo
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  #25  
Old 12-22-2004, 05:33 PM
delphypop delphypop is offline
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Default Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f

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Quote:
yet under Ilok you pay directly to a third party (Ilok) to protect and maintain that protection, and they use that position to charge you, the end user and hike the price up.
How do we pay them to protect and maintain that protection? I've never given a cent directly to iLok. All of my iLoks came with software I purchased, and I have not purchased ZDT.
so what are you going to do when you get a fault. shut down your studio cos the software copy protection mechanism stopped going? and you think thats reasonable.




Quote:
Of course we pay for copy protection...we would even if the manufacturers didn't use the iLok. You just seem to be bothered that you may on occasion have to pay the company that manages the copy protection directly.
yep, thats it in a nutshell.
ilok don't care about squeezing every penny out of us cos its not their software. digi on the other hand has a vested interest in their customers. squeeze to hard and they'll go to the neext platform that offers the same for less, not that that platform exists in my opinion at the moment, but it might.

Quote:
no ones denying that the portable authorisation is a sweet feature, but that shouldn't be the primary purpose of the key. its to get the software running on one system, and it should'nt cost the user an ongoing expense.
Quote:

It doesn't cost the end user an ongoing expense. If you're paying for ZDT, you're basically paying insurance, in case your iLok goes down. You're not paying for the copy protection itself. You don't have to have it. If your iLok goes down it will get taken care of. It may just take a few days, or you may have to contact all of the plugin manufacturers directly. Doesn't seem like a huge cost to pay to avoid that inconvenience if something were to go wrong.
How do you think its not going to cost you? you're definitely going to have a problem at some stage. if you don't have ZDT then you're going to lose productivity from your gear. your key is a wearable item, it is going to fault. you will have to buy a replacement and you with have to transfer authorisations. it is going to cost you. you might be ok with that but I'm not.
and I don't want to pay 'insurance' for someone elses protection.
you can keep arguing for your personal right to do so but i'd rather have the option to not do so if its all ok with you.


Quote:
If you're having to pay the fee if you have a problem, you're paying for technical support. That's very common. And as others have mentioned, it's a rare event that someone's actually charged for it. I had a technical issue that they took care of and I wasn't charged.
but its technical support for something that is nothing to do with better sound. its an incontinence as it is, and now its a financial burdon. once again, you feel free to keep arguing for your right to pay for these inconveniences but I'd rather the software I've already paid a substantival amount of money for works as is, with the minimum amount of fuss and bother, and no hidden and extra costs. this stuff isn't cheap in the first place as you're well aware.

Quote:
I don't mind ilok sticking around if digi makes efforts to cover the maintenance and costs of it and perhaps even takes away the power from ilok corp.
Quote:
In my case, they have...the iLok was part of the package that came with my HD system. But why should they have to pay for additional "maintenance" for plugins that they didn't manufacture? Again, if anyone has to pay for "maintenance" at all. I haven't had to.
thats a good point about third party software protection, all my iloks authorisations are for things I got off digi so it doesn't really apply to me, but yes, what about those other parties. perhaps digi who provides one platform can collect fees from them for protecting their rights, but I still don't think its my responsibility.

[QUOTE]
Quote:
Its cool that you can use your rig in Antarctica or Mars if you want, but I and most others just want to get our own rigs going. So its a spin off benefit to the upper few percent who are lucky enough to jetset around mixing at exotic locations, at the expense of the average user. now where have I seen that logic used before?
Quote:
But aren't we in the TDM forum anyhow? If you can afford to purchase a TDM system, is the expense really a big issue?

its an ethical issue as much as an expense issue, but the expense isn't a couple of bucks, and it is on going. its also a procedural issue. the procedures in place do not favour the client, they favour ilok, and digi and 3rd parties get to fob their responsibilities off onto someone else.

Quote:
go and have a look at the construction of them again. maybe you got a nice chrome encased one but my rig came with a light plastic one, and if you are moving from rig to rig, or merely moving your rig to different locations as I do sometimes, you're going to have to remove it, store it, plug it back in etc, its going to be subject to stress, it is going to wear, and sooner or later it is going to fail.
Quote:
I'm sure our iLoks are identical. And now you're making it sound like you're one of the elite you were just talking about...sounds like you do take advantage of its other features.
how so? I've only got one rig and I do live location recordings all at a very affordable rate of course, my ilok gets wear and tear from it. I don't deny you your right to move from studio to studio but if you think we should maintain the present ilok system just so you can do something which is a specialist need thing then thats a bit narrow visioned.

Quote:
If you're really concerned, get one of those little USB extenders and leave it plugged into that. Or leave it plugged into your USB hub and just unplug that.
I am really concerned, and so are a lot of other people, but I'm not raising these issues to be a pain, I'm trying to push for a better system, and if I don't mention it and you keep yelling me down then we're not going to get a system that does all the things you want and all the things I need.
I could enclose my ilok in a vacuum sealed shielded from sunlight, sterile environment too, then it would be really safe, part from damage from accidental crushing, man, so many things to worry about. there are lots of things to do to protect the ilok, like not putting it in your pocket like its another key even though it looks like one, but it still ignores the basic issue, who is ilok protection, who is it for. not me. its for software companies. They've devised a system that does stuff for them, and the upkeep and safety and maintenance onus is on us. I'm raising this glaring issue so it can be contemplated and maybe addressed.

Quote:
I have a bunch of microphones in my studio I plug in and unplug on a regular basis. I don't think that the concept of taking good care of a relatively small, relatively valuable piece of equipment is a difficult one.
mmmmmmmgggg
but a microphone does something for you, ilok does something for someone else. why is that so difficult to grasp.

Quote:
Thats a special needs feature that benefits you sure, but its an add on, not the core issue of merely getting your software to run in a transparent fashion. moving round is sweet, but not at the expense of just simply getting one system to run, in a stable and transparent way.
Quote:
Again, the iLok is the most stable and transparent copy protection scheme I've seen yet. If you're really so opposed to the iLok, though, why not just use plugins from companies like Waves and Antares who don't require it?

-Duardo
well thats a good solution then isn't it, why don't I just drive a taxi or something.
I'm opposed to ilok, not the software it protects, a lot of which is digi stuff, on the platform I use.
my challenge response software is more transparent. it may not provide as greater protection as ilok to the software developers but its more transparent to me the guy who actually paid for this stuff.
why not give us the option. u can either use ilok or another type of protection.
then you'd be happy and i'd be happy and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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  #26  
Old 12-22-2004, 05:40 PM
Lee Blaske Lee Blaske is offline
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Default Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f

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Although we must agree to disagree on this, if you travel and need to being your tools with you, as many of us do, you will HATE challenge/response.
The NI and Spectrasonics systems allow you to have multiple computers authorized (two at a time for NI, and unlimited for Spectrasonics). I can travel with that software and have absolutely NO fear of it being lost or stolen.

Quote:
If you have had the pleasure of a CPU migration recently, you will HATE challenge/response.
As a matter of fact, I just replaced my system drive and did a complete re-installation of everything I own. It was a piece of cake. I take it you've never used the Spectrasonics system. I've spent far less time fooling around with that then I've spent maintaining my iLok.

Quote:
I can jump to other studios, bring my dongle on the airplane, work on someone else's rig, and never worry that the other system doesn't have my tools.

That's nice in theory, but I really wonder how universally applicable this is. If somebody walks into my studio and says "Stand aside while I do a big pile of software installations on your system!" I'll tackle them before their fingers touch the keyboard. Anybody that's concerned about system stability needs to be careful about what's being installed in their system.

We're also at a point where some of these installations (especially sample libraries) can take a VERY long time, especially with data decompression. Ever install the VSL Pro Edition? Optimally, lots of these things need to be installed on faster internal drives rather than FW, so traveling with a FW drive isn't necessarily practical. If you're a person needing to dealing with a mega installation, traveling with your system is probably the best solution.

Lee Blaske
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  #27  
Old 12-22-2004, 05:55 PM
delphypop delphypop is offline
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Default Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f

Quote:
I can jump to other studios, bring my dongle on the airplane, work on someone else's rig, and never worry that the other system doesn't have my tools.

That's nice in theory, but I really wonder how universally applicable this is. If somebody walks into my studio and says "Stand aside while I do a big pile of software installations on your system!" I'll tackle them before their fingers touch the keyboard. Anybody that's concerned about system stability needs to be careful about what's being installed in their system.
Lee Blaske

[/QUOTE]

thats a good point lee.
its not just the key, you have to take installer discs for all of this stuff, and then you have to deal with clashes and crashes. and then when you go the person who's rig you used has to weed out all those plugs that no longer have authorisation.
I remember a couple of demos I installed and when the time period had expired they created problems.

ilok isn't quite as care free international traveller without luggage as you make it out to be jeremy. its a little in that direction, but there's more to it than that.
perhaps a system where you got your authorisations off the net would be just as simple, then you wouldn't even have to have that troublesome heavy key in its climate conrolled, sealed for sterility, reinforced concrete container,

personally I don't want any of those features, I just want my one rig to run free and transparent, and it is running now, after that little glitch with the dead connection, which opened my eyes to how fragile it was. I'm speaking up now in the hopes that I don't have to find out again.
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  #28  
Old 12-22-2004, 06:28 PM
Logichead Logichead is offline
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Default Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f

I haven't done it, but isn't it possible to install all your software and preferences onto a bootable firewire drive which you take to other studios? You re-boot with your drive and it is as if you are on your own rig.

Maybe not as portable as an iLok, but way more complete.

At least in theory...

Best....H
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  #29  
Old 12-22-2004, 08:02 PM
jeremyroberts jeremyroberts is offline
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Default Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f

>>ilok isn't quite as care free international traveller without luggage as you make it out to be jeremy.

it really is.

try this:

upgrade your CPU to Apple's latest and greatest. You have a ton of ilok plugs, + many challenge response.

how long will you spend dealing with C/R? let's say 3 minutes each (in a perfect world, but we know that it will take AudioEase 24 hours to respond. Antares will only issue new responses during business hours, Spectrasonics has cut me off due to too many installs, so i have to beg each time now (x 3 plugins), etc...

I have 41 assets on my ilok. at 3 minutes each (conservative) that's HOURS.

when I migrated to my new G5, moving the iLok took about 8 seconds.

NOW - here's the fun part. You wish to have a clone of your boot partition for testing new software versions before you go live with clients... ok, CCC it... but all your C/R auths need to be re-done on the clone boot drive. iLok is done.

Shall I continue? You are asked to mix a tune at a friend's studio. You tell them to download your favorite suite of plugs that they don't own... you bring iLok, and that's that.

Lee's fear about installing plugs doesn't hold up under OSX, since there's only one place for it. Easy to remove.

Why would I want my auths on a HARD DRIVE that is sure to crash eventually?

I own a bunch of C/R software, but as soon as the vendors allow iLok, I will move my auths there.
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  #30  
Old 12-22-2004, 08:54 PM
Lee Blaske Lee Blaske is offline
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Default Re: ilok - someone elses security system you pay f

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when I migrated to my new G5, moving the iLok took about 8 seconds.
That's great, but you're not ready to do anything yet. Next, you've got to install all the software and research the latest versions. Most likely, you'll have to buy some upgrades, then wait for the company to send you the upgrade iLok keys, or horse around having them dump assets onto your iLok account. Then you've got to transfer them to you iLok. If you installed via card/keys, you need to go back and synchronize the iLok. If you've got Waves stuff, the authorization procedure is different. Things can get screwed up, and some of the update dances are convoluted. iLok is not god's gift to the daw world. iLok can be a PITA in its own special way. I've frittered away a lot of time with the two I have (initially, because of a problem with iLok software that wouldn't allow me to access the iLok account on my daw computer).

Sure, installing C/R software takes time, but getting iLok stuff installed and running is also time consuming.

Quote:
Shall I continue? You are asked to mix a tune at a friend's studio. You tell them to download your favorite suite of plugs that they don't own... you bring iLok, and that's that.
What if they're using an older version of a plug-in or plug-in suite? For instance, say they're on Waves 4.0, and your sessions are 5.0? Do you want them do replace all their Waves stuff with 5.0? That calls for moving lots of stuff around. What if you're on Waves 4.0 and they've installed 5.0? Do you want them to downgrade? AutoTune is supposedly going to by iLok compatible soon, too. There's another big opportunity for compatibility problems. Also, AutoTune installs stuff in multiple locations. Any studio allowing clients to drastically alter the software on their system disk had better take careful notes so they can restore everything to the way it was.

The vintage of the Digidesign system at the host studio, along with the computer hardware and OS being used is also going to have an impact on the portability of a project and plug-ins. If the host studio doesn't have Accel, your Accel only plug-ins will not work.

If any content oriented plug-ins move to iLok, files will almost certainly be installed in multiple locations.

Lee Blaske
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