ICON vs Other console for film post

[filmixer]

Hi Blake A,
A Pro Tools HD or Accel TDM system can only have 96 physical I/O channels (6 fully fitted 192s). Some large format digital consoles, i.e. Euphonix System 5, can have over 300 inputs per operator from any combination of DAWs, dubbers and recorders you might want. BTW, Digi will be introducing multiple system control with the ICON in a future software release.

[Blake A]

A Pro Tools HD or Accel TDM system can only have 96 physical I/O channels (6 fully fitted 192s). Some large format digital consoles, i.e. Euphonix System 5, can have over 300 inputs per operator.

Thats right, System 5 and others can get pretty big (if you have close to $million to spend), but most of those 300 inputs are used to bring in your source tracks which the Icon has up to 192 internally without using any of that 96 I/O. I'm sure the largest film consoles will scale up larger than Icon currently will from an input standpoint but I can quote one example a lot of you already know of.
That facility Widget Post in LA who were on the cover of Mix Magazine a few months ago. They had a 3 operator 96 fader (3x32) Icon on their dub stage. That would have 3 HD Accel systems with 192 disk tracks each plus 128 non disk full audio channels (aux tracks). Thats well over 600 tracks at mix down for 3 x $90K= $270K plus the cost of the ProTools, which you would likely buy anyway with any other digital console.

Blake

[grivel]

>That facility Widget Post in LA who were on the cover of Mix Magazine a few months ago

Widget is a mom and pop shop compared to the majority of facilities that own System-5 with massive # inputs for audio post. While technically you may be able to do alot with the ICON and achieve huge internal mix in the box track counts, it's not the technical reasons why these products can't compete in the same market. DFC-MPC-S5 = prestige, corporate, major studios ICON = schools, mom & pop post shops, get the job done

Technologically you can say it my be able to do 80% of what the system-5 can do, but so what... do you think it will ever get used that way? NO. It's a lost cause to even argue it. I also don't think the avg joe is going to buy a System-5 or any of those massive consoles, so I don't even know why they were brought up in the first place.

>Thats well over 600 tracks at mix down for 3 x $90K= $270K plus the cost of the ProTools, which you >would likely buy anyway with any other digital console

Many pro tools systems hooked up to the large post consoles have already paid for themselves. The required tracks are already there for the big console companies. Your over 600 tracks doesn't mean anything, those aren't discreet i/o's. Large machine rooms will always have multiple products for target and reproduce: MMR-8, MMP-16, MX-2424, DD16PBPlus, DD8Plus, DADR5000, OTHER DAWs besides Pro Tools. Pro Tools still, but it needs to work with other products. This is a must in the high end.

Technology always changes, and Pro Tools is still very big in north american post but things are slowly changing, economic forcasting shows that large companies will continue to accomodate various other gear that is more cost effective and more reliable than Pro Tools.

[Henchman]

grivel,

Can you PM me. I have a question for you.

[grivel]

>grivel,

>Can you PM me. I have a question for you.

Hi Henchman, I'll look into this. Thanks Sir.

[Bokir]

DFC-MPC-S5 = prestige, corporate, major studios ICON = schools, mom & pop post shops, get the job done

Okay so far this is the only answer I've got. Any other reason?

Thanks.

[Henchman]

Okay so far this is the only answer I've got. Any other reason?

Thanks.

Well, looking at your facility, it looks like you are a prime candidate for an Icon.
The picture of your main mix room show sthat you don't hve the room for anyrhing bigger. And judging by the other pictures and equipment, the projects you work on don't warrant a big consoel anyway.

[Scott Wood]

Excellent point Henchman.

ICON is the perfect size board for bringing top end power into medium size rooms. It would be hard to get 192 internal tracks plus 96 analog or digital input router points into most mid size rooms. With ICON, you can easily do that. You'll have the gear, at least, to compete head on with anyone without question on all but the biggest 30-40 projects in the world each year. If you put in two ICONs, your power doubles, etc...

On those other top 30-40 projects, we have already seen top films doing extensive premixing of effects, music, and dialog predubs "in the box" over the last couple of years. And this year we have seen PT control surfaces appearing next to the big iron consoles you mention in the rooms you mention, working as premixing and side car consoles to support the added inputs and automation features needed next to their big iron consoles. Why? They had run out of inputs on some of those huge film stage consoles you mention. And a Control 24 gives them up to another 192 tracks with just a single Ethernet connection. Many doubled their effects track count by just adding a single Control 24 on the side.

ICON appears to be set to expand that presence on those top 30-40 projects in those big rooms. In short, despite their current investment in gear, PT mixing "in the box" on Digi control surfaces continues to expand as an important part of those top 30-40 film projects each year. As those mixer's skill set continue to expand and they get more familier with mixing in the box, I wouldn't bet against more and more of those "radicals" mixing more in the box as their primary mixing tool.

[Henchman]

ICON appears to be set to expand that presence on those top 30-40 projects in those big rooms. In short, despite their current investment in gear, PT mixing "in the box" on Digi control surfaces continues to expand as an important part of those top 30-40 film projects each year. As those mixer's skill set continue to expand and they get more familier with mixing in the box, I wouldn't bet against more and more of those "radicals" mixing more in the box as their primary mixing tool.

Again, I must respectfully disagree.
As I said before, it's quite easy to throw in a Pro-control or control 24 to add faders to a mix.
However, throwing in an Icon is a bit more involved. becasue of space and wiring necessity.

[Bokir]

Henchmann and all,

Well, looking at your facility, it looks like you are a prime candidate for an Icon.
The picture of your main mix room shows that you don't have the room for anything bigger. And judging by the other pictures and equipment, the projects you work on don't warrant a big console anyway.

We're considering building the real (bigger) dubbing theater. That is why I'm asking this very question.

Again my question, considering the ability of mixing hundreds of tracks ITB (by multiple PT), do we still need those hundreds of I/O? Beside the necessary I/O for outboard SFX and Dolby and monitoring unit?

Or perhaps the question, do we still need to invest on that aux dubbing machine (MMR, MMP, DD, Mag Tape, etc) considering that most post already convert to mix ITB? Doesn't it cheaper (if I have to) to setup another PT dubber system?

I don't want to start a flame here, I just really need the info to measure our investment.
I really appreciate all the answer on this thread.

Thanks a lot.