More Midi Timing Issues in 8.1.1

[synth999]

I tried removing the plugs from the master fader and still have the same issues.
Just playing back a single track session with ADC on and physically plugging the out of the converter to the in and recording places the audio ahead of the beat. Behind with ADC off. I realize this has expanded the topic to include track placement as well as midi timing.

[DigiTechSupt]

Originally Posted by synth999

I tried removing the plugs from the master fader and still have the same issues.
Just playing back a single track session with ADC on and physically plugging the out of the converter to the in and recording places the audio ahead of the beat. Behind with ADC off. I realize this has expanded the topic to include track placement as well as midi timing.

I think I see the problem - you're using an Aurora converter, not a 192. I'm pretty certain that we don't auto-compensate for A/D/D/A conversion through that interface, so what you're seeing is likely the converter delay.

[synth999]

I will get my hands on a 192 and test but everyone I have talked to ( including LYNX ) confirms that the aurora acts the same as a 192. I have used apogee converters with HD and did have to manually compensate because the ad16x had different latency specs than the 192. Something is working but not correctly, ADC places any newly recorded audio ahead of the elastic drum track audio that is locked to the grid. I tried a manual offset of the H/W insert delay in the I/O setup with no changes. Any other work around you could think of? How will PT 9 address 3rd party converters and ADC or latency compensation?

[DigiTechSupt]

Originally Posted by synth999

Thanks for the response, I am sorry for the rants but this is seriously driving me crazy. I typically use a Novation remote 61sl as a controller via usb. Midi in is not a problem since I can quantize if i need to. Output is a problem with both the the digi midi i/o and novation. I don't really use VI's in PT, I do that work in Nuendo. most of my current work in PT is Piano/Organ and I use hardware synths and usually do a pass with the performance and another to overdub drawbar movements and volume swells, I have tried thinning controller data and eliminating it for testing purposes. I am using lynx converters with lt hd cards. These supposedly report the same latency as 192's. I have a bunch of wrapped vst fx in the plugins folder some of which are not on the compatibility list but rarely used and not inserted in this session. Most of the plugs I use in PT are digirack and current waves stuff. My h/w buffer is at 256 the dae buffer = level 2 and cache = normal. I use this config most of the time unless I have real time elastic,high track count an many plugs.
I just recorded 1/4 notes as a test using a piano sound, quantized and then recorded audio in with 470 samples of latency with or w/o adc on. Shouldn't the hardware (converter) latency be calculated and audio placed in time? Checked that box in I/O setup. bounced to disk with adc on and increased that by 10 samples.
If I use elastic to tighten drum and guitars every thing gets moved to the beat and I have to manually adjust any new audio for vocals, ect.
This test was done with no plugs and just a click track all other tracks in this session are inactive. When I activate all the tracks and plugs I have big problems. Midi is out of time and if I bounce with adc ( stereo mix ) it places it like 4000 sample AHEAD of the beat. Same problem with midi it plays early with adc on. I also have buses setup for fx and gtrs and drums and know that was an issue in the past with adc. I am trying things out as I write this and just discovered the issue with midi playback is with the long delay comp. engine. Midi is now in time with the short comp. engine and all tracks and plugs active. Did a stereo bounce of the track with the short engine and had PT place it in a new track. This was still placed early.

Is your MIDI data on an Instrument or MIDI track?

Make sure it's on an Instrument track and then try disabling ADC on that track when re-recording. Just control+command click on the 'dly' item in the ADC section of the track.

[DigiTechSupt]

Originally Posted by synth999

I will get my hands on a 192 and test but everyone I have talked to ( including LYNX ) confirms that the aurora acts the same as a 192. I have used apogee converters with HD and did have to manually compensate because the ad16x had different latency specs than the 192. Something is working but not correctly, ADC places any newly recorded audio ahead of the elastic drum track audio that is locked to the grid. I tried a manual offset of the H/W insert delay in the I/O setup with no changes. Any other work around you could think of? How will PT 9 address 3rd party converters and ADC or latency compensation?

I just tested this with Pro Tools 9.0.2 on Mac with a 96IO and could not reproduce the problem. Routing a track to an output that's wired back to an input - tested with plug-ins on the track, on the master fader, etc. All lined up perfectly.

Could you possibly upload a session that exhibits the issue (including audio - you can reduce audio files as long as it still shows the problem) and send me a link to download it to: vi [at] digidesign [dot] com.

[Fullsound Recording]

Vi Digi.. Are you saying Midi tracks should be placed not in a midi track but in a Instrument track?

[Bobogura]

Originally Posted by synth999

Latency/Delay Comp. Issues?

I did record a loop out of aurora 8 analog out back to analog in. It is in 16 ch mode ( one 192 shows up). The new track that is recorded is placed 250 samples early! This is with an overloaded delay compensation engine ( lots of plugs), aux buses and inserts on the master fader. I recorded again with delay compensation off and plugs inactive I get 126 samples of latency. Anyone else seeing this? Help!

I have a Lynx Aurora 16 and HD Native and never experienced the problems you describe. As long as you only use audio tracks...

Because what I do have problems with and always have (Used to have HD1) is midi timing with ADC and loads of VI's and plugins.
It's ok if u just have a couple of VI's here and there but for massive midi arrangements with LOADS of automation its just not tight, and RTAS instruments is not efficient enough.

In my day job as a mixing/recording engineer I use Pro Tools 100%.
But for that kind of productions I use Logic which I hate.
At least the midi is tight in Logic though. It does annoy me a lot and everything takes longer for me to do in logic but the end result is tight.

I've tried Ableton, Nuendo, Reaper etc... Just want pro tools midi to be tight.

[DigiTechSupt]

Originally Posted by Fullsound Recording

Vi Digi.. Are you saying Midi tracks should be placed not in a midi track but in a Instrument track?

Not necessarily - it was just for testing, since you can disable ADC on an Instrument track, but not a MIDI track (MIDI is handled by the Global MIDI Offset)...

Merely an experiment to see if anything changes as I'm not quite sure what could be going wrong at the moment.

[DigiTechSupt]

Originally Posted by Bobogura

I have a Lynx Aurora 16 and HD Native and never experienced the problems you describe. As long as you only use audio tracks...

Because what I do have problems with and always have (Used to have HD1) is midi timing with ADC and loads of VI's and plugins.
It's ok if u just have a couple of VI's here and there but for massive midi arrangements with LOADS of automation its just not tight, and RTAS instruments is not efficient enough.

In my day job as a mixing/recording engineer I use Pro Tools 100%.
But for that kind of productions I use Logic which I hate.
At least the midi is tight in Logic though. It does annoy me a lot and everything takes longer for me to do in logic but the end result is tight.

I've tried Ableton, Nuendo, Reaper etc... Just want pro tools midi to be tight.

Is there a particular buffer setting you work at when using Pro Tools? Larger buffer sizes can cause problems with MIDI timing and it's something we're working on. It's dependent a lot on the types of VI's you use as well - some adhere to time-stamping protocols, others do not.

[synth999]

Sorry, had a live gig and been out of the loop for the last week. Record midi in to a instrument track when using hardware Synths? I will give it a shot if this is correct. I will need to get that session uploaded to usendit or a similar site. There are a bunch of rtas plugs but no VI's in the session. It's pretty huge so I will have to strip it back to active playlists and tracks when I get a chance. Thanks for the follow up.