Any suggestions (drums)?

[jofo]

I am enclosing 2 drum tracks. Both are the same drummer, both recorded in the same studio. One is mastered in a professional recording studio, the other is a raw mix, unmastered, by me at home (I'm sure you can tell which is which).
I am not new at PT but new to mixing drums. I am trying to get as close as possible to the professional recording. If anyone would care to listen and suggest what sounds like it's missing it would be much appreciated.
Obviously, mine is quieter. I feel it's missing an openness and cleanness that I'm not sure how to get.
If providing my panning and plug ins info helps let me know.
Thanks in advance.

https://soundcloud.com/user571610070/drums-pro

https://soundcloud.com/user571610070/drums

[DC-Choppah]

He doesn't hit the bass drum in the top one, so can't compare bass drum sound.

Top clip has more ride cymbal details (close mic?) and hi-hat and tom detail mixed in. Bottom clip sounds more like it is capturing the kit as a whole.

Top clip has the details of the cymbals ringing audibly, perhaps some upward compression or just the way the mics are blended, that gives it an openness.

Snare on the bottom clip is more 'far away' than the top. Again sounds like the top has more of the direct mic mixed in.

Transients are highlighted more in the top clip.

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by DC-Choppah

He doesn't hit the bass drum in the top one, so can't compare bass drum sound.

Top clip has more ride cymbal details (close mic?) and hi-hat and tom detail mixed in. Bottom clip sounds more like it is capturing the kit as a whole.

Top clip has the details of the cymbals ringing audibly, perhaps some upward compression or just the way the mics are blended, that gives it an openness.

Snare on the bottom clip is more 'far away' than the top. Again sounds like the top has more of the direct mic mixed in.

Transients are highlighted more in the top clip.

Actually I can hear the bass drum in the top file; it's eq'd and compressed differently than in the bottom file. Sounds like a mic was used inside the bass drum or through a port on the front head.

The top file has more of the direct mics and compression used than the overheads which are WAY more prominent in the bottom file. Really - the bottom file has almost none of the direct mics mixed in.

jofo:
What I want to know is did you have access to the same files/session that were used to mix the professionally done one? If you do then you should be able to get close to the pro one. That is if your mixing environment is in good shape and you have decent monitors. Mixing drums can be a bear if there's any boominess in the room at all. You'll make things sound too thin and get the classic won't translate to another listening environment. All the advice and plugins in the world won't help until you get your environment fixed.

[jofo]

Originally Posted by musicman691

Actually I can hear the bass drum in the top file; it's eq'd and compressed differently than in the bottom file. Sounds like a mic was used inside the bass drum or through a port on the front head.

The top file has more of the direct mics and compression used than the overheads which are WAY more prominent in the bottom file. Really - the bottom file has almost none of the direct mics mixed in.

jofo:
What I want to know is did you have access to the same files/session that were used to mix the professionally done one? If you do then you should be able to get close to the pro one. That is if your mixing environment is in good shape and you have decent monitors. Mixing drums can be a bear if there's any boominess in the room at all. You'll make things sound too thin and get the classic won't translate to another listening environment. All the advice and plugins in the world won't help until you get your environment fixed.

No, I didn't have access to those. I feel my mixing environment is fine, it's just that I don't have drum mixing experience.
I didn't use any compression at all. I did use some eq. I did not use the bass drum mics or the tom mics at all. It's mostly room, cymbals, and hi hat.
There is the snare mic on there but I put a gate on it.
I guess I'll experiment with compression.

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by jofo

No, I didn't have access to those. I feel my mixing environment is fine, it's just that I don't have drum mixing experience.
I didn't use any compression at all. I did use some eq. I did not use the bass drum mics or the tom mics at all. It's mostly room, cymbals, and hi hat.
There is the snare mic on there but I put a gate on it.
I guess I'll experiment with compression.

Okay - if you didn't have access to those tracks how did you get your audio? Did you put up your own mics or did you take a feed off the mixing console? Because unless you had some kind of access to and used the original tracks/signal then the comparison is null and void. You can't just pick and choose what mics and try and compare that to someone or something that used everything that was recorded.

Mixing drums is one of the more difficult things to do and unless your mixing environment is perfect you're going to be missing all kinds of things in the audio. You could have room resonances that will cause you to pull down certain freqs. that will make your sound thin or cause you to boost others. Remember that in general it's better to cut when using eq than to boost.

You also have to make some kind of decision on what type of drum sound you're trying to achieve. For a while an ultra dry room sound was in vogue, then that changed. And it has to work with the rest of the mix. You could have something that sounds good soloed but when in the mix sounds like crap. Or vice versa. Pros make these kinds of decisions all the time.

[jofo]

Maybe I didn't explain it correctly; the drummer is the same, the studio where both examples were recorded the same, except two different projects. The pro recording is the drummer's CD, the other mine (in progress).
Where we recorded the drums is not my studio; I don't have a drum space or anything. I recorded piano and bass at my home studio, then went to another studio to record the drums.
While both were recorded at the same studio for drums, the mixing and mastering of the CD example was done in a entirely different studio by different engineers.
In other words, I am trying to achieve results close to the pro mixed/mastered CD by myself. I have no contact with the mixing/mastering studio and no access to their method.

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by jofo

Maybe I didn't explain it correctly; the drummer is the same, the studio where both examples were recorded the same, except two different projects. The pro recording is the drummer's CD, the other mine (in progress).
Where we recorded the drums is not my studio; I don't have a drum space or anything. I recorded piano and bass at my home studio, then went to another studio to record the drums.
While both were recorded at the same studio for drums, the mixing and mastering of the CD example was done in a entirely different studio by different engineers.
In other words, I am trying to achieve results close to the pro mixed/mastered CD by myself. I have no contact with the mixing/mastering studio and no access to their method.

So, in short, you're saying the recordings were done under two different sets of circumstances. They had one set of mic placement and you had another - right? Like I said - you can't legitimately compare the two because you don't have the same data to work with. When you get that then we'll talk. Until then - I'm outta here.

[jofo]

Originally Posted by musicman691

So, in short, you're saying the recordings were done under two different sets of circumstances. They had one set of mic placement and you had another - right? Like I said - you can't legitimately compare the two because you don't have the same data to work with. When you get that then we'll talk. Until then - I'm outta here.

They were done with basically the same mic placement, as the studio is run by one guy only. He does the mic placement, and as I understand it, basically mics everything the same way for all his sessions, which are 99% jazz. The drummer told me the raw sound of the drums there was basically the same both times.
He did not mix them there. That was done at another studio altogether.

So, if I understand you, you're saying I need to get the session data from the mixing session at the other studio?
Because if I had that, I wouldn't need to post this thread, as my answers to my questions would be answered just by looking at the levels, panning, and plug ins used.

What I was basically asking was if anyone had an opinion about what was missing between the two recordings, and how I might rectify that, such as: add some compression, pan this way, use more close mic sound, etc.

I do appreciate your time to give it a listen.

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by jofo

They were done with basically the same mic placement, as the studio is run by one guy only. He does the mic placement, and as I understand it, basically mics everything the same way for all his sessions, which are 99% jazz. The drummer told me the raw sound of the drums there was basically the same both times.
He did not mix them there. That was done at another studio altogether.

So, if I understand you, you're saying I need to get the session data from the mixing session at the other studio?
Because if I had that, I wouldn't need to post this thread, as my answers to my questions would be answered just by looking at the levels, panning, and plug ins used.

What I was basically asking was if anyone had an opinion about what was missing between the two recordings, and how I might rectify that, such as: add some compression, pan this way, use more close mic sound, etc.

I do appreciate your time to give it a listen.

Getting the data would be one thing but also to get a real legitimate comparison between the work your comparing to and your mix of the same thing (I'm assuming that's what you're working from) you need to use the same mic setup and mics that were used. If the original setup had and used close mics on everything as well as room and overheads then you'd want to have the same setup. Elsewise if you're trying to compare your mixes with the original you won't have the same sources. Granted a good mixer can work wonders with software to 'fix it in the mix' but you really don't want to rely on that kind of technique.

It's like the old saying that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Or to put it a little more bluntly and modern - you can't polish a turd.

[jofo]

Originally Posted by musicman691

you need to use the same mic setup and mics that were used. If the original setup had and used close mics on everything as well as room and overheads then you'd want to have the same setup

It was the same mics, same setup, same studio.