how to avoid clipping on post fader bus sends?

[jacko]

Originally Posted by midnightrambler

How do you get around using additive EQ on an insert to signals that are near 0dBFS? No amount of master faders are going to save you there. Do you not use plug-in EQs? Or do you just not realise that all your plug-ins are clipping?

Why am I still feeding this troll?

Read the definition of an internet troll. It's you. I am not an anonymous unpleasant person with doubtful knowledge. You have a benefit of checking who I am, I don't have any idea who you are. Can I listen to your work somewhere?

Leaving insults aside - to answer your simple question, the answer is even simpler. If clipping ever occurs I deal with it. There are several ways but explaining basic things seems unnecessary.

As I said, there are many other people working in, what you call, incorrect gain structure and you are wasting your time on a little guy like me. Go and rant about incorrect gain structure of Michael H. Brauer. See where it takes you.

[Greg Malcangi]

Originally Posted by WildHoney

As an aside, I think it would be great if PT let us choose b/w a meter display in dBu or dBFS.

That's not very easy to do in practice. dBu is a fixed reference (0.775v rms), whereas dBFS is not. This gives great flexibility in that you can calibrate your digital levels to whatever standard you like and there are quite a few different standards. Off the top of my head, this means that 0dBFS could be anything from about +14dBu to +26dBu depending on which standard you've calibrated your AD/DA converter to.

G

[jacko]

Originally Posted by Greg Malcangi

What I would do if I had your level problem inside ProTools: First of all I would tell whoever was supplying me with the tracks to supply them next time at the correct level and that peaks should be -12dBFS or lower.

I might try that one day, but I don't have really any problems at the moment and I don't see any reason to make changes.

Just hold down the option key and instantiate the trim plugin on all your channels in one go. Lowering all your faders by say 10dB (manually, as a group or with a VCA) will help with your post fader sends problem but will not stop you from missing some plugin clipping, which is more than likely.

I don't have problems with clipping on inserts.

When you're mixing together 50 or 150 tracks, that's when the master fader becomes a really useful tool, it's not so good a tool for compensating for tracks which are recorded too hot because it doesn't stop you clipping your inserts. Maybe you misunderstood the protools expert?

I don't clip my inserts. PT Music Expert was at my studio, spent some time looking through my sessions and he was impressed with my workflow. The only thing he suggested was using master fader so I could run my channel faders a bit higher.


I think the main problem with this discussion is that people assume that I don't know Pro Tools and I don't know how to mix. I am happy when people comment my mixes but I don't understand why people judge my work by making assumptions that I have clipping everywhere in my sessions and I am not aware of that. I am always open to suggestions but repeated implications based on assumptions that I am doing everything wrong ... what are they for?

[AINSLIE]

Originally Posted by midnightrambler

Well I mix stuff from all over too and I can tell you that anyone who's tracking near 0dBFS is NOT a top engineer. It stands to reason : put an EQ on a kick drum that's already near the max, put some bottom end on it - bam! You're already clipping. Where is the sense in that?

FWIW I whack a trim plug-in at the top of all offending tracks.

Of course - my point is that I am not going to go tell my clients (producers / engineers, labels, artists, writers etc ..) that they are all doing it wrong. My job is to mix - to be a 'can do' guy. I am supplied pristine audio. Nothing wrong with it. YES _ IT IS RECORDED HOT. It is my job to mix it, not blame the suppliers of the audio for using the bandwidth available. Are you people telling me that you refuse hot audio and lecture your clients how their audio is poorly recorded - above the headroom of their input devices? If it sounds good, then its usable IMHO. I'll make it work. Even if it sounds horrible, I will make it sound good. Thats my job.

Ainslie

[Greg Malcangi]

Originally Posted by milaszewski

I might try that one day, but I don't have really any problems at the moment and I don't see any reason to make changes.

So why did you start this thread complaining that protools post send faders didn't have enough headroom if you don't have problems?

Originally Posted by milaszewski

I don't clip my inserts. PT Music Expert was at my studio, spent some time looking through my sessions and he was impressed with my workflow. The only thing he suggested was using master fader so I could run my channel faders a bit higher.

I think the main problem with this discussion is that people assume that I don't know Pro Tools and I don't know how to mix. I am happy when people comment my mixes but I don't understand why people judge my work by making assumptions that I have clipping everywhere in my sessions and I am not aware of that. I am always open to suggestions but repeated implications based on assumptions that I am doing everything wrong ... what are they for?

OK, I'm coming to the conclusion that you are in fact trolling now. Your mixes are packed with clips, they're maybe not so noticeable because of the genre you're working in but you've got loads of clipping going on. I simply don't believe that a ProTools Expert was impressed by your workflow! I can wave my certificates in the air too if you want, I'm a DigiDesign Certified Instructor for both Music and Post and there are only a handful of 310M certified Protools experts in Europe and all the ones I know are highly knowledgeable and would not be impressed with your workflow or encourage you to push your already too high faders even higher and compensate with a master fader. You may not be getting clipping on your inserts (although I'd be surprised if you weren't) but you're getting a hell of a lot of it from somewhere.

OK, I've done my best. Time for me to be off.

[AINSLIE]

Originally Posted by Greg Malcangi

So much ignorance in one post, it's difficult to know where to begin! If you knew even the basics of 24bit digital audio you would know it's impossible to use the full dynamic range and tracking near to 0dBFS is not traditional practice, it's not even good practice, it's ignorance of how 24bit digital audio works and by definition the people doing it are not top engineers, they are not engineers at all!

G

Do you tell the people who supply your audio that they are ignorant? Theory is wonderful and good to know for sure. I am well aware of all the 'correct' theory being thrown around - I started on tape, used and owned virtually all recording formats and lived thru the evolutions of analog -> digital tape -> DAW. Analog console -> Digital console -> DAW. Of course owning / using the stuff doesnt make anyone an expert - however I am a geek and I do happen to care BUT ...

We are in a new reality. I will not filter my clients by theoretically correct knowledge and practice. They supply me very usable and creative audio. I dont care how they got it. Whether they abused all technical limits and methods.

If it sounds good it is good.

I will use my creative and technical knowledge / powers to help them deliver a great creative master to their market. Consumable and loved by their fans who dont give a toss whether the audio was theoretically incorrectly recorded. I say again - my personal guideline and quality control has its bottom line in this IF IT SOUNDS GOOD IT IS GOOD.

Now - a trim on post fade sends might be a nice addition in the real world. All theoretical objections noted.

Ainslie

[jacko]

Originally Posted by Greg Malcangi

So why did you start this thread complaining that protools post send faders didn't have enough headroom if you don't have problems?

I didn't really complain, I just wanted to see how people deal with it, having my own way. I expected too much. I thought people would say:

- I put 12dB trims on all channels
- I never run my faders above 0dB
- I normalize my audio tracks to -12dBFS
- I use parallel send to master bus

I imagined there would be a discussion about all pros and cons of different work styles.

[lexaudio]

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[midnightrambler]

Originally Posted by milaszewski

Read the definition of an internet troll. It's you. I am not an anonymous unpleasant person with doubtful knowledge. You have a benefit of checking who I am, I don't have any idea who you are. Can I listen to your work somewhere?

Leaving insults aside - to answer your simple question, the answer is even simpler. If clipping ever occurs I deal with it. There are several ways but explaining basic things seems unnecessary.

As I said, there are many other people working in, what you call, incorrect gain structure and you are wasting your time on a little guy like me. Go and rant about incorrect gain structure of Michael H. Brauer. See where it takes you.

I'm an unpleasant person for simply questioning your work methods? As you will see from my many previous posts, I try my best to help others when I can, and often exchange good advice with other professionals on here. I can get a little acerbic but that's just British humour. I don't think that makes me a troll. Maybe I am and I just don't realise?

Yes, you can listen to my work. PM me and I will give you my website.

You and Michael Brauer in the same sentence eh? What an ego you must have. I am truly humbled by your genius.

[PTUser NYC]

Well said, Ainslie. As professionals, we shouldn't be complaining up the chain about the audio levels we receive. Maybe if something is horribly distorted, or has dropouts, we might ask if there is an earlier unprocessed version, but that'd be pretty rare.

It's good to make a point about the real world vs. theory.

I also want to say that I listened to milaszewski's work and it was pretty good. That's also real world, so credit to him.

He did ask a question about gain staging, and got good answers back about gain staging.

He said "I imagined there would be a discussion about all pros and cons of different work styles."

That's what this IS. Everyone's saying their workstyles are to work at lower levels. Maybe audiosuite gain down all your tracks before you mix?

No one is saying you don't know how to get good sounds. But you asked a question about gain staging, and those are the answers you're getting?

milaszewski then answered "Can I listen to your work somewhere?" and "Go and rant about incorrect gain structure of Michael H. Brauer" These are actually GOOD answers. i think it is fair to look at an engineer's work as the final arbiter of whether they make sense. There are a lot of ways to do things, and different engineers have different practices. Again, real world.

I remember watching Jason Corsaro mix and EVERYTHING was pegged off the charts. It sounded amazing. Who can question great results?

But the thing is, pushing things in the analog world is an art. In digital, nothing changes until it's awful. There is no fatness from mixing nearer to the top of the scale. Digital summing doesn't love you the way analog summing does when you push it. Digital summing sounds the same whether you do it just under full scale, or 40 db lower than that.

milaszewski can get the same great sounds, and they will combine in the same way at lower levels.

If clipping a post fader send is an issue, then work within the specifications of the system. In this case, there is no reason not to work lower. Nothing is "gained" (sorry couldn't help it) and increases in headroom, interfacing with analog gear, and ease of workflow are all benefits. In the real world!