Pull down & ProTools 5.1.3

[nath]

hi y'all,

I'm running a Mac G4 933, TDM mix +, 888/24's, Sync I/O (not USD) , OS 9.2, ProTools 5.1.3, Digitranslator v1.

I have a panasonic pro S-VHS player that I play my video/vision etc from as master, with protools as slave - timecode on the video BITC and additionally on audio channel 2. This machine always works like a dream, is fast, and way cheaper than a Beta/SP etc.

I normally send LTC into the SYNC I/O from the panasonic s-vhs, then p/tools locks to the video this way. I mainly do post for televison, which in Australia is always 25 or 30fps.

I am doing post for a feature film for the first time, and this is the first time dealing with 24fps. OMF's for this project come to me at 24fps. Video comes to me at 29.97fps. I need to 'pull down' to sync my video to my protools session, I am led to believe???

Accordingto the SYNC I/O manual, protools 5.1.3 does not support this, and I need to get 5.3.1?? is this correct??

From the digidesign website, I am led to believe 5.3.1 is protools/HD only - not TDM/Mix??? is this correct??

Is there anything else I can do???

Can anyone help???

cheers, Nath / Sydney Australia

[Tiago Silva]

Let's see if I don't trip myself this time:

If your video comes with a 3:2 pulldown, then the 24fps audio and the 29.97fps video will be at the same speed apart from the 0.1% slowdown of NTSC video. What's the television system in Australia? NTSC? How come you say you get things at 25 fps?

I never tried the VSO slide bar of the SYNC, see if that works; the surest way is getting a good resolver box, like the Rosendahl WIF, that accepts LTC and video and outputs wordclock and MTC resolved to the incoming signals, but you can add pull-ups and pull-downs with it (both 24/25fps and .1% NTSC). Connect the video to the WIF, connect the x256 wordclock of the WIF to the Slave clock input of the 888, configure the WIF to -0.1%, and the LTC goes to the SYNC as usual. In the Command-2 box (Session Properties) set sync to Internal and the 888 will play digital audio at 48KHz -0.1% (the external Superclock) but the timeline will follow the incoming LTC (positional reference: LTC).

Good luck. It's true you have a SYNC, but the 5.1.x codebase doesn't have the programming to tell SYNC how to pull up and down. You might consider upgrading to OSX+PT6.4.1, because then you can use the SYNC to pull up and down.

[hell pie]

I usually use PT 5.1.3. Did you check your session setup window? Set your framerate to 29ND and then select pull down. Audio should be in sync with picture without having to move anything around. Does that help?

[MrKnewitAll]

Don't worry, we do this all the time. It's easy, but it's not simple.

AS TO the version of Protools, I'm not sure how older version of PT interface with the sync I/O. Right now I'm using 5.1.1, but with a USD, and it works fine. My Sync I/O is on an HD system, and it uses 5.3.1 without a hitch.

AS TO video and film speeds, don't be confusing the 3:2 pulldown with sample-rate pulldown. They are two different things. The 3:2 pulldown is how we get 24fps film to play normally on nominally 30fps video without any anomalies. The sample-rate pulldown is how we get audio that was recorded at 30fps (aka realtime, aka 24fps) to play at NTSC video speed (29.97fps).

What we do here (in Hollyweird) is this. We receive NTSC videoes at a frame rate of 29.97fps. The videotape timecode on film projects is 29.97nd. The OMFs given to us from Avids always open up saying they're 24fps, but that's not how they stay.

After opening your OMF file, in the Session Setup window, set your Frame rate to 29.97FPS. Set your sample Rate Pull Up/Down: to Pull Down. Now the session should play in sync against your video deck provided that your sync i/o and video deck are sharing a common video reference, such as blackburst. If your deck and sync i/o aren't using a common reference, they may drift a bit - often we see about a frame every 10 minutes. If your session setup window won't tell your SyncI/O to pull down, you could be in trouble. You could try the controls on the front of the SI/O, but they're usually locked out when you've got ProTools running.

Remember, the sound is not recorded at any particular frame rate, since there are no frames on the sound. Films are usually recorded at full sample rate (44.1khz or 48.0khz), and the camera is running at full sample rate (24fps). The avids run the film at 24fps, and the sound at 48khz - much of the time. But when they need to make an output to video, they need to slow the AVID down 1/10% to get it onto NTSC video. So they pull the Avid down and make the video. If you get a copy (via OMF) of those same sound files, and you want to play them correctly against the (now pulled-down) video, you'll have to pull down your Protools to do so.

Be thankful that you've been working in PAL!


I'M CURIOUS: Since you use PAL there, how can you play 29.97 video on your televisions? (or on your video decks)? Perhaps you have very expensive multi-frequency devices?

Good luck with the film!

[nath]

Thanks all you responded.

I'll try the suggestions and see how I go.

FYI - generally its PAL here in Oz - but this film has been shot on High definition, and the video I'm getting is on NTSC.. (re; 29.97 fps)

cheers, Nath

[rhumphries]

Are you sure the HD was shot at 24? If it was shot at 23.98 you don't need to do the pulldown.

Thanks all you responded.

I'll try the suggestions and see how I go.

FYI - generally its PAL here in Oz - but this film has been shot on High definition, and the video I'm getting is on NTSC.. (re; 29.97 fps)

cheers, Nath

[wpurple]

Another possible option. Using DigiTranslator, change the timecode format from 24fps to 29.97ndf.* Turn on the "Sample Rate Convert" button and set the "Source Audio Sample Rate" to 47952 and the "Destination Audio Sample Rate" to 48000.* The session will now be 48khz at a 29.97 ref. instead of 47952 at a 29.97 ref.. This will prevent later problems when it comes to importing picture or audio from other sessions. The pull down button during editorial can be a trap if you are not careful.

[rodpost]

After opening your OMF file, in the Session Setup window, set your Frame rate to 29.97FPS. Set your sample Rate Pull Up/Down: to Pull Down. Now the session should play in sync against your video deck provided that your sync i/o and video deck are sharing a common video reference, such as blackburst. If your deck and sync i/o aren't using a common reference, they may drift a bit - often we see about a frame every 10 minutes.

This is how I just did it on a recent project but make sure you pull down AFTER importing the tracks from the OMF. If you have a template you use and are importing the tracks into that, don't pull down the OMF session, leave it alone, pull down the template/mix session.
Also if you are using digital video be careful since PT 5.x.x doesn't allow for seperate pulldowns for audio and video. I had to take the digital video tracks in as 30 fps so they would follow the pull down in the PT mix session correctly.

Hope this helps

Rod

[sleadley]

I'M CURIOUS: Since you use PAL there, how can you play 29.97 video on your televisions? (or on your video decks)? Perhaps you have very expensive multi-frequency devices?

It is interesting to note that here in OZ practically all our video devices (TV's; Videos; Canopus boxes; etc.) all have the ability to play NTSC.
I work in PAL all the time and for us we never have the Pull up/ Down issue (in the telecine they duplicate 1 fram every second to keep the 25fps the same duration as the 24 fps). If I work in NTSC and get a 24 fps OMF all I do is digitise the Video (Miro or DV) at 29.97. Then within PT 6.x I Pull the QT Movie UP, so that it plays at 30 fps which is the same speed as the 24 fps OMF. No need for hardware sample rate changes. It works perfectly. I used this exact method for the Music on Master and Commander that was Mixed at Fox in LA.
A pretty good reason to go up to HD and PT 6.x
Regards
Simon L.