Fine breakpoint adjustment change in 12.6 = Showstopper

[Kyle Splittgerber]

Hi Guys,

In 12.6, Grid Toggle was introduced. This allows the Command (Mac) or Control (Win) key to temporarily enable or disable Grid. Before 12.6, you could only use Command/Control to suppress Grid when in Grid mode, but could never enable Grid when in Slip. This change is a significant improvement to editing in Pro Tools.

However, this change means Command/Control can no longer be used for fine breakpoint adjustment. So, we had to make a trade off. That trade off is that Shift+Command (Mac) or Shift+Control (Win) to now required for fine breakpoint adjustment with the Grabber tool. Keep in mind, this change only affects Slip mode. Shift+Command (Mac) and Shift+Control (Win) were always required for fine breakpoint adjustment in Grid mode before 12.6 (as Command/Control was used to suppress Grid mode).

Also, be aware that the order the modifier keys are pressed impacts the behavior. If Shift, then Command/Control is pressed, fine breakpoint adjustment is performed at the current breakpoint location. If Command/Control, then Shift is pressed, Grid will be enabled/disabled first, then fine breakpoint adjustment is performed. For example, if you are in Grid mode and you want to drag a breakpoint off Grid then perform fine breakpoint adjustment, hold Command/Control and drag the breakpoint to the desired location, then add Shift and drag breakpoint vertically. Same logic in Slip mode. Another example, if you are in Slip mode and want to stay in Slip mode and perform fine breakpoint adjustment, drag the breakpoint to the desire location, press Shift first then Command/Control and drag breakpoint vertically.

[Shan]

Originally Posted by Basstian

ok. this makes 12.6 useless. only vertical fine adjustment. and different modifierers tor fine adjustment in different tasks

Wait until you try it in both Slip mode and Grid mode. This brings the MIDI side of PT to more difficult editing tasks compared to it's past behavior.

Shane

[Kyle Splittgerber]

Originally Posted by Shan

Wait until you try it in both Slip mode and Grid mode. This brings the MIDI side of PT to more difficult editing tasks compared to it's past behavior.

Shane

Can you be more specific? And, did you see my post above?

Fine breakpoint adjustment in Grid mode requires Shift+Command (Mac) or Shift+Control (Win) just like Legacy Pro Tools. Are you seeing something different?

[Basstian]

Originally Posted by Kyle Splittgerber

Hi Guys,

In 12.6, Grid Toggle was introduced. This allows the Command (Mac) or Control (Win) key to temporarily enable or disable Grid. Before 12.6, you could only use Command/Control to suppress Grid when in Grid mode, but could never enable Grid when in Slip. This change is a significant improvement to editing in Pro Tools.

However, this change means Command/Control can no longer be used for fine breakpoint adjustment. So, we had to make a trade off. That trade off is that Shift+Command (Mac) or Shift+Control (Win) to now required for fine breakpoint adjustment with the Grabber tool. Keep in mind, this change only affects Slip mode. Shift+Command (Mac) and Shift+Control (Win) were always required for fine breakpoint adjustment in Grid mode before 12.6 (as Command/Control was used to suppress Grid mode).

Also, be aware that the order the modifier keys are pressed impacts the behavior. If Shift, then Command/Control is pressed, fine breakpoint adjustment is performed at the current breakpoint location. If Command/Control, then Shift is pressed, Grid will be enabled/disabled first, then fine breakpoint adjustment is performed. For example, if you are in Grid mode and you want to drag a breakpoint off Grid then perform fine breakpoint adjustment, hold Command/Control and drag the breakpoint to the desired location, then add Shift and drag breakpoint vertically. Same logic in Slip mode. Another example, if you are in Slip mode and want to stay in Slip mode and perform fine breakpoint adjustment, drag the breakpoint to the desire location, press Shift first then Command/Control and drag breakpoint vertically.

I do understand how this works now. And that ist the problem.

No possibility to set, fine adjust and horizontally move a breakpoint in one step.

And that is what you do 1000+ times a day. In the older days on the volume graph. Now for some time in clip gain and volume.

Hold command set, move and finetune the point in one step. This was possible while playing back. Making PT a killer in dialog editig.

Now this is not possible anymore. Not only that you will need at least two steps. Now moving horizontally while fine adjusting is not possible anymore at all. Not only doubling the work, but completely changing a fundamental behaviour that has been there for years.

Again. You are not able to finetune and move a breakpoint at the same time anymore. How could that be any kind of improvement.

In trade for something I completely don't understand.

In grid mode it was always possible to use modifiers to move thing in between the grid. And beeing in slip mode I do not see the need to "shortcut" to grid mode too often. Something that is rarely used. This could have been made possible through the use of more than one modifier without changing fundamental behaviour of PT.

At least for me this new "feature" ruins the editing speed of PT and will make it impossible for me to update. Even though there are long awaited improvements.

[dieffe]

I would have to try it, but grid toggle doesn't sound at all as an improvement to me.

It makes sense to go temporarily to slip when in grid mode, but it doesn't make sense at do the other way around, at least for dialogue/sfx editing.

Maybe for fx, but most of the time, I switch mode before editing.

And I can't really understand how having the fine breakpoint movement fixed in time could be seen as an improvement!

And I'm not planning to upgrade to 12.6 any time soon now... even if there are some other very good new features and improvements.

[Drew Mazurek]

Put it back, it's awful the new way.

[Shan]

Disclaimer: Please don't take the following personally. It's feedback only and not in anyway an invalidation of all the hard work done by you folks at HQ.

Originally Posted by Kyle Splittgerber

Hi Guys,

In 12.6, Grid Toggle was introduced. This allows the Command (Mac) or Control (Win) key to temporarily enable or disable Grid. Before 12.6, you could only use Command/Control to suppress Grid when in Grid mode, but could never enable Grid when in Slip. This change is a significant improvement to editing in Pro Tools.

For who, and what part of editing in Pro Tools? Were common use case scenerios for MIDI CC editing surveyed and also considered before development of these new enhancements, or was audio editing for post the only focus with MIDI CC editing not even considered?

Originally Posted by Kyle Splittgerber

However, this change means Command/Control can no longer be used for fine breakpoint adjustment. So, we had to make a trade off. That trade off is that Shift+Command (Mac) or Shift+Control (Win) to now required for fine breakpoint adjustment with the Grabber tool. Keep in mind, this change only affects Slip mode. Shift+Command (Mac) and Shift+Control (Win) were always required for fine breakpoint adjustment in Grid mode before 12.6 (as Command/Control was used to suppress Grid mode).

Common use case editing scenarios for MIDI CC in both Instrument and MIDI tracks couldn't have been taken into consideration during development of this new change, hence the MIDI side of PT doesn't actually improve with this release, but gets more long winded and difficult to work with(and not just the new fine control change). Most MIDI CC editing is going to have a different intent and purpose than the breakpoint editing in Audio tracks.

Originally Posted by Kyle Splittgerber

Also, be aware that the order the modifier keys are pressed impacts the behavior. If Shift, then Command/Control is pressed, fine breakpoint adjustment is performed at the current breakpoint location. If Command/Control, then Shift is pressed, Grid will be enabled/disabled first, then fine breakpoint adjustment is performed. For example, if you are in Grid mode and you want to drag a breakpoint off Grid then perform fine breakpoint adjustment, hold Command/Control and drag the breakpoint to the desired location, then add Shift and drag breakpoint vertically. Same logic in Slip mode. Another example, if you are in Slip mode and want to stay in Slip mode and perform fine breakpoint adjustment, drag the breakpoint to the desire location, press Shift first then Command/Control and drag breakpoint vertically.

If it takes the above to explain the new change, then it's far from being user friendly in my honest opinion. Ctrl+Shift on a MIDI CC breakpoint in Slip mode use to do constrained vertical fine control. Now it snaps the breakpoint to the nearest grid line quite randomly. Please don't take this personally. It's only feedback codified from using common MIDI CC use case scenarios. There are others I can go into if you like. Basstian covered one of many on the audio side above as it relates to post. The new change is not an improvement as it adds extra MIDI CC editing steps, hence extra time. Direct A to B is the ideal that should be strived for. If a MIDI composer has to orchestrate 50+ cues for a project and can save even just 5 minutes of long winded procedural editing per cue, that's 4 hours of time saved! New enhancements should be helping us get our work done faster, not adding extra time. When you develop new enhancements for audio, please, please, consider how it's going to impact the MIDI side of PT also. Not everything is going to be 100% usable one to one from Audio tracks to Instrument/MIDI tracks.

Is Avid going to revert it back to the old behavior, find another solution, or do we have to live with this new change that no one asked for en masse?

My vote is to revert it back.

Shane

[TOM@METRO]

For me... Take 12.4 and do nothing but fix bugs and rewrite MIDI.

[Carl Kolchak]

Somewhat mystified as to how the inclusion of an additional modifier key, the inversion of a long established methodology, and a doubling of the workload, is considered a "Short Cut" - as compared to simply pressing F2 or F4?

Surely the goal is to simplify, not upset & complicate?

[rhumphries]

Originally Posted by Carl Kolchak

Somewhat mystified as to how the inclusion of an additional modifier key, the inversion of a long established methodology, and a doubling of the workload, is considered a "Short Cut" - as compared to simply pressing F2 or F4?

Surely the goal is to simplify, not upset & complicate?

+1,

...or in avid speak, 'Shift' + 'Command' +1