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  #11  
Old 12-08-2016, 12:16 PM
loopzilla2 loopzilla2 is offline
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Default Re: Midi through delay with hardware synths

I've found the issue to be a leak in the playback engine.

If I simply switch the playback engine to a Mac internal outout, fire up the session again, then reset back to my preferred playback engine the timing problem goes away. Super annoying though...
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  #12  
Old 12-08-2016, 07:55 PM
Blinkofani Blinkofani is offline
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Default Re: Midi through delay with hardware synths

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
Just for grins - if you bump up your buffer to 1024 is a delay introduced? The OP and I are using the same MIDI interface, so there might be something there.
Tried at 1024 and of course I had a slight delay since I'm monitoring thru PT. I'd have trouble recording something, you totally loose the groove and feel. I tried monitoring thru the Apollo Console mixer and I was back with no latency despite the large buffer, of course.

In my way of working I don't see the point of monitoring the external synth outside PT, as I can apply FXs in realtime if I monitor thru the PT mixer. But, to each is own...

Blink
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  #13  
Old 12-08-2016, 08:43 PM
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Tim Ripley Tim Ripley is offline
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Default Re: Midi through delay with hardware synths

Quote:
Originally Posted by chroma17 View Post
Have you tried un-checking "MIDI Notes and Controllers" under the "Delay Compensation for External Devices" heading in the MIDI preferences? This can effect MIDI being routed through Pro Tools even if you are not recording.

I only have a slight delay (around 10ms) sending MIDI via an RME AIO PCIe card.
Yes. I have tried every combination of those three options as well as the buffer settings. The delay remains consistent. Way more than 10ms. More like a 32nd note at 120 bpm. I was starting to think that the MOTU MTP AV and Pro Tools just didn't work together but the fast lane and a mbox interface I had laying around both had the same delay. I think Pro Tools is delaying the output of the thru MIDI data. Open up Digital Performer and the delay is gone.
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Timothy Ripley
Composer, engineer, musician

Mac Pro (Late 2013)
3.5 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon E5
32 GB 1866 MHz DDR3
AMD FirePro D500 3072 MB
Dual 4Tb Thunderbolt G Drives
Acer B326HUL 32" 2560 X 1440, VIZIO video monitor
Sierra 10.13.2, Pro Tools 18.1.0.241, EuControl 18.3.0.244
Lots of WAVES Plugins, Avid Artist Mix and Control
Digital Performer 9.51, MOTU 1248 (Thunderbolt), MOTU 2408 MkII (x2)
MOTU MTP AV (USB), a bunch of hardware synths, mic preamps, & outboard FX
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  #14  
Old 12-08-2016, 08:52 PM
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Tim Ripley Tim Ripley is offline
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Default Re: Midi through delay with hardware synths

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blinkofani View Post
In my way of working I don't see the point of monitoring the external synth outside PT, as I can apply FXs in realtime if I monitor thru the PT mixer. But, to each is own...

Blink
I don't always monitor synths outside of Pro Tools. I'm just doing it this way for testing purposes to eliminate all of that as a possible source of more delay. Also, I've got an awful lot of hardware synths normalled to console channels and it's just easier to pull up a fader. This is a hold-over from the all-MIDI days when the computer was locked to the tape transport via smpte. I got used to working that way. Editing the MIDI tracks and just running them live in the final mix and never committing them to tape. Yeah, I'm old.
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Timothy Ripley
Composer, engineer, musician

Mac Pro (Late 2013)
3.5 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon E5
32 GB 1866 MHz DDR3
AMD FirePro D500 3072 MB
Dual 4Tb Thunderbolt G Drives
Acer B326HUL 32" 2560 X 1440, VIZIO video monitor
Sierra 10.13.2, Pro Tools 18.1.0.241, EuControl 18.3.0.244
Lots of WAVES Plugins, Avid Artist Mix and Control
Digital Performer 9.51, MOTU 1248 (Thunderbolt), MOTU 2408 MkII (x2)
MOTU MTP AV (USB), a bunch of hardware synths, mic preamps, & outboard FX
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  #15  
Old 12-08-2016, 08:54 PM
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Tim Ripley Tim Ripley is offline
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Default Re: Midi through delay with hardware synths

Quote:
Originally Posted by loopzilla2 View Post
I've found the issue to be a leak in the playback engine.

If I simply switch the playback engine to a Mac internal outout, fire up the session again, then reset back to my preferred playback engine the timing problem goes away. Super annoying though...
Thanks. I'll try that.
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Timothy Ripley
Composer, engineer, musician

Mac Pro (Late 2013)
3.5 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon E5
32 GB 1866 MHz DDR3
AMD FirePro D500 3072 MB
Dual 4Tb Thunderbolt G Drives
Acer B326HUL 32" 2560 X 1440, VIZIO video monitor
Sierra 10.13.2, Pro Tools 18.1.0.241, EuControl 18.3.0.244
Lots of WAVES Plugins, Avid Artist Mix and Control
Digital Performer 9.51, MOTU 1248 (Thunderbolt), MOTU 2408 MkII (x2)
MOTU MTP AV (USB), a bunch of hardware synths, mic preamps, & outboard FX
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  #16  
Old 12-08-2016, 09:25 PM
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Tim Ripley Tim Ripley is offline
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Default Re: Midi through delay with hardware synths

Quote:
Originally Posted by loopzilla2 View Post
I've found the issue to be a leak in the playback engine.

If I simply switch the playback engine to a Mac internal outout, fire up the session again, then reset back to my preferred playback engine the timing problem goes away. Super annoying though...

THAT WORKED!
Do you know how many years I have been dealing with this without discovering that? Thank you, thank you, thank you. If you're ever near DC, I'll buy you the refreshing beverage of your choice!

For those with the same problem, here is the 'workaround'.

1. Open the file.
2. Switch the playback engine to built-in audio and set the buffer to 32 (which of course quits and re-opens the file. The delay was still there in my case)
3. Switch back to your preferred audio interface (mine is a my MOTU 1248 - which of course quits and re-opens the file. The delay was then GONE!)
4. Set the buffer back to your preferred setting. This setting will now not affect the midi-thru timing no matter where you set it.

I have to do this every time I start up Pro Tools. I was hoping it would stay as long as the computer is powered up, but quitting and re-opening Pro Tools causes the midi-thru delay once again and I have to re-do the above procedure.

I've read several threads trying to get to the bottom of this issue and have never seen a solution posted.

I wonder if this problem is unique to MOTU interfaces? Loopzilla2, are you using a MOTU midi (or audio) interface? Why in the world is thru-midi is affected by the audio engine? Probably something to do with delay compensation since that must deal with midi data too, but why the delay with no plugs and only one track? My concept of the delay compensation is that it works on the playback side of things. Why would you ever want to delay live midi? Questions, questions... but happy!
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Timothy Ripley
Composer, engineer, musician

Mac Pro (Late 2013)
3.5 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon E5
32 GB 1866 MHz DDR3
AMD FirePro D500 3072 MB
Dual 4Tb Thunderbolt G Drives
Acer B326HUL 32" 2560 X 1440, VIZIO video monitor
Sierra 10.13.2, Pro Tools 18.1.0.241, EuControl 18.3.0.244
Lots of WAVES Plugins, Avid Artist Mix and Control
Digital Performer 9.51, MOTU 1248 (Thunderbolt), MOTU 2408 MkII (x2)
MOTU MTP AV (USB), a bunch of hardware synths, mic preamps, & outboard FX

Last edited by Tim Ripley; 12-08-2016 at 09:48 PM.
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  #17  
Old 12-08-2016, 10:07 PM
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Tim Ripley Tim Ripley is offline
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Default Re: Midi through delay with hardware synths

Setting the buffer to 32 when you choose the audio interface is an important detail.

Pro Tools seems to assign that same buffer setting to the midi-thru data when the file is opened. After that, it has no effect on the midi thru data timing.

More discoveries:

If you change the buffer to 32 samples and always open your projects with it set that way, you won't have to do the 'switch-audio-to-internal-and-back-to-your-preferred-interface' step when you open it up - even if you quit Pro Tools. PT seems to set the midi thru delay from the audio buffer setting that is current when the file is opened. Big buffer = big delay. Once the file opens, you can change the buffer to your preferred setting and it will not affect the midi thru timing. These are my findings and could be unique to my system. I just wanted to document things here so that they might help someone in the future.
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Timothy Ripley
Composer, engineer, musician

Mac Pro (Late 2013)
3.5 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon E5
32 GB 1866 MHz DDR3
AMD FirePro D500 3072 MB
Dual 4Tb Thunderbolt G Drives
Acer B326HUL 32" 2560 X 1440, VIZIO video monitor
Sierra 10.13.2, Pro Tools 18.1.0.241, EuControl 18.3.0.244
Lots of WAVES Plugins, Avid Artist Mix and Control
Digital Performer 9.51, MOTU 1248 (Thunderbolt), MOTU 2408 MkII (x2)
MOTU MTP AV (USB), a bunch of hardware synths, mic preamps, & outboard FX

Last edited by Tim Ripley; 12-09-2016 at 12:37 AM.
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  #18  
Old 12-09-2016, 04:35 AM
ChuckS ChuckS is offline
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Default Re: Midi through delay with hardware synths

Since the audio buffer is effecting MIDI thru, there probably is still a delay at the 32 buffer setting, but it's so small it's playable for an accomplished keyboard person. Since keyboards are not my primary instruments I can tolerate up to a buffer of 128 for adding simple parts and fills as long as the MIDI is written to the session correctly (which it is). This should be logged as a bug by Avid - doesn't make sense for the audio buffer to effect MIDI thru.
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  #19  
Old 12-09-2016, 10:32 AM
Tim Ripley's Avatar
Tim Ripley Tim Ripley is offline
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Default Re: Midi through delay with hardware synths

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
Since the audio buffer is effecting MIDI thru, there probably is still a delay at the 32 buffer setting, but it's so small it's playable for an accomplished keyboard person. Since keyboards are not my primary instruments I can tolerate up to a buffer of 128 for adding simple parts and fills as long as the MIDI is written to the session correctly (which it is). This should be logged as a bug by Avid - doesn't make sense for the audio buffer to effect MIDI thru.
Yes. How do I do that? (Make Avid log it as a bug...)
__________________
Timothy Ripley
Composer, engineer, musician

Mac Pro (Late 2013)
3.5 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon E5
32 GB 1866 MHz DDR3
AMD FirePro D500 3072 MB
Dual 4Tb Thunderbolt G Drives
Acer B326HUL 32" 2560 X 1440, VIZIO video monitor
Sierra 10.13.2, Pro Tools 18.1.0.241, EuControl 18.3.0.244
Lots of WAVES Plugins, Avid Artist Mix and Control
Digital Performer 9.51, MOTU 1248 (Thunderbolt), MOTU 2408 MkII (x2)
MOTU MTP AV (USB), a bunch of hardware synths, mic preamps, & outboard FX

Last edited by Tim Ripley; 12-09-2016 at 02:23 PM.
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  #20  
Old 12-10-2016, 04:46 AM
loopzilla2 loopzilla2 is offline
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Default Re: Midi through delay with hardware synths

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Ripley View Post
THAT WORKED!
Do you know how many years I have been dealing with this without discovering that? Thank you, thank you, thank you. If you're ever near DC, I'll buy you the refreshing beverage of your choice!
Glad it worked! Seems as if AVID never discovered it either. Even here most are convinced it's a buffer issue.

I'll take you up on that beverage offer though -
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