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  #11  
Old 09-01-2015, 03:21 PM
Barry Johns Barry Johns is offline
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Default Re: Avid S3 suport plan clarification please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artist PM View Post
You have a good understanding of the situation, this is an accurate post.

JC
Sorry to be such a pain. So any Protools related bug issues with the S-3, I'm not talking about new features, but bug related issues with the S-3 and Protools 11 or 12 will be free? For me to get those bug fixes with Protools 11 or 12 I do not have to be on any kind of support plan or subscription plan right?
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  #12  
Old 09-01-2015, 04:49 PM
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Default Re: Avid S3 suport plan clarification please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Johns View Post
Sorry to be such a pain. So any Protools related bug issues with the S-3, I'm not talking about new features, but bug related issues with the S-3 and Protools 11 or 12 will be free? For me to get those bug fixes with Protools 11 or 12 I do not have to be on any kind of support plan or subscription plan right?
It really depends on where the bug is.

On the EUCON side, any bug fixes that can happen exogenous to DAW work are delivered in EuControl. These are bugs relevant to any DAW no matter what happens in the adapter. Access to EuControl does not require a support contract or subscription.

On the DAW side, you need to have access to the releases that have the bug fixes. For example, there are certain things needing work in Logic which are not an issue with Cubase. Additionally, a bug might be fixed in Logic X and never addressed in 9, or fixed in Cubase 8 but not in 7. It's up to the DAW to address DAW specific bugs, we often work with them to figure out why it is happening and to determine whether it is completely in the adapter, or EUCON needs to be updated, or both.

In the Pro Tools world, 11.3.1 is out there, and has several bug fixes which did not require a support contract. If you have 12 this means you are on a support plan or subscription - in your first year this is accounted for when you upgrade or subscribe.

JC
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  #13  
Old 09-01-2015, 08:47 PM
Barry Johns Barry Johns is offline
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Default Re: Avid S3 suport plan clarification please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artist PM View Post
It really depends on where the bug is.

On the EUCON side, any bug fixes that can happen exogenous to DAW work are delivered in EuControl. These are bugs relevant to any DAW no matter what happens in the adapter. Access to EuControl does not require a support contract or subscription.

On the DAW side, you need to have access to the releases that have the bug fixes. For example, there are certain things needing work in Logic which are not an issue with Cubase. Additionally, a bug might be fixed in Logic X and never addressed in 9, or fixed in Cubase 8 but not in 7. It's up to the DAW to address DAW specific bugs, we often work with them to figure out why it is happening and to determine whether it is completely in the adapter, or EUCON needs to be updated, or both.

In the Pro Tools world, 11.3.1 is out there, and has several bug fixes which did not require a support contract. If you have 12 this means you are on a support plan or subscription - in your first year this is accounted for when you upgrade or subscribe.

JC
You know you are skirting around the issue. You know exactly what I'm asking but answering like Hillary Clinton regarding her email server.
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  #14  
Old 09-01-2015, 11:06 PM
kriszuki kriszuki is offline
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Default Re: Avid S3 suport plan clarification please.

Hey Barry, which bugs are you referring to that need fixing?
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  #15  
Old 09-02-2015, 06:54 AM
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Default Re: Avid S3 suport plan clarification please.

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Originally Posted by Barry Johns View Post
You know you are skirting around the issue. You know exactly what I'm asking but answering like Hillary Clinton regarding her email server.
Barry,

I've been straightforward, honest, and transparent. I've posted my work email address so we can discuss offline.
This public conversation has become irrational and hostile. Unless you want to email me directly I'll consider this post conclusive.

JC
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  #16  
Old 09-02-2015, 02:39 PM
Barry Johns Barry Johns is offline
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Default Re: Avid S3 suport plan clarification please.

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Originally Posted by Artist PM View Post
Barry,

I've been straightforward, honest, and transparent. I've posted my work email address so we can discuss offline.
This public conversation has become irrational and hostile. Unless you want to email me directly I'll consider this post conclusive.

JC
It didn't turn Hostile until you just turned it hostile.

You know you've been vague in your answers. I've asked very direct, simple questions, of which are not being answered. It really is that simple.

Also, I would be happy to take it off line, but I don't see an email address.
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Last edited by Barry Johns; 09-02-2015 at 02:57 PM.
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  #17  
Old 09-02-2015, 02:54 PM
Barry Johns Barry Johns is offline
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Default Re: Avid S3 suport plan clarification please.

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Originally Posted by kriszuki View Post
Hey Barry, which bugs are you referring to that need fixing?
None in general, just trying to understand the relationship between buying and using the S3 with Protools.

I like many have zero intention of joining this subscription plan, and have been considering buying the S3 to use with Protools HD11, but when I found out that updates won't come unless I'm on the support plan, well that's when I started asking these questions and the responses have been incredibly vague.

Eucon has been plagued with bugs since day one, I get it, its computer software driven and that happens, I can deal with that. They keep throwing the Adapter Term out there, which I am assuming are new features that are being added to Protools to use with the S3.

My very simple question asked here and in other threads, is this:

Will all bug fixes of any and every single kind be free with the S-3 until it becomes EOC? My question is specific to Protools HD11 and native 11.

I don't think its too irrational to expect that when I spend 5k on a big mouse, yes that's what it is, as my Pro Control is a big mouse, but hey, I like mice, to expect that I not have to pay anywhere, for any reason to keep it working with my software.

I also want to make sure that Avid does not try to use the Adapter term, to mean that I won't get the updates as I should.

VCA spill, as an example, I assume they call that an Adapter, so if I'm not on the support plan, no VCA spill for me. Ok, I guess I can understand that, but to a degree.

Things on the bug list, no, I should never have to pay for those, whether identified today or next year unless those are related to new features implemented after I bought the S-3. That being said, lets say the do an update to PH11 that causes a new bug with my S-3, well no way I should have to pay for that.

Why is this so hard to answer?

On top of that, I get called Hostile for saying that he has been vague in his answers. Crazy.....

Want to call me a thorn in your side, I accept that.

Want to call me a jerk for bing overly persistent, ok I accept that.

Calling things what they are, "Vague", well I don't accept that.
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  #18  
Old 09-02-2015, 04:51 PM
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Default Re: Avid S3 suport plan clarification please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Johns View Post
None in general, just trying to understand the relationship between buying and using the S3 with Protools.

I like many have zero intention of joining this subscription plan, and have been considering buying the S3 to use with Protools HD11, but when I found out that updates won't come unless I'm on the support plan, well that's when I started asking these questions and the responses have been incredibly vague.

Eucon has been plagued with bugs since day one, I get it, its computer software driven and that happens, I can deal with that. They keep throwing the Adapter Term out there, which I am assuming are new features that are being added to Protools to use with the S3.

My very simple question asked here and in other threads, is this:

Will all bug fixes of any and every single kind be free with the S-3 until it becomes EOC? My question is specific to Protools HD11 and native 11.

I don't think its too irrational to expect that when I spend 5k on a big mouse, yes that's what it is, as my Pro Control is a big mouse, but hey, I like mice, to expect that I not have to pay anywhere, for any reason to keep it working with my software.

I also want to make sure that Avid does not try to use the Adapter term, to mean that I won't get the updates as I should.

VCA spill, as an example, I assume they call that an Adapter, so if I'm not on the support plan, no VCA spill for me. Ok, I guess I can understand that, but to a degree.

Things on the bug list, no, I should never have to pay for those, whether identified today or next year unless those are related to new features implemented after I bought the S-3. That being said, lets say the do an update to PH11 that causes a new bug with my S-3, well no way I should have to pay for that.

Why is this so hard to answer?

On top of that, I get called Hostile for saying that he has been vague in his answers. Crazy.....

Want to call me a thorn in your side, I accept that.

Want to call me a jerk for bing overly persistent, ok I accept that.

Calling things what they are, "Vague", well I don't accept that.
I called the dialog irrational and hostile, as you have compared my direct and honest exchanges about very straightforward software development to a completely unrelated and negatively charged socio-political dialog, questioning the ethics of a public figure.

Let me use different words:

1. If you don't have a EUCON controller and don't have specific bugs you are concerned about or are impeding your workflow, how do you have license to comment on its bugginess or reliability? There are tens of thousands of users with Artist Series, and most have no issues. For the certain configurations where there are issues, we work with users to isolate and address them. We have released over 100 updates to EuControl since 2007 and continue to improve the protocol and its interoperability with over 40 DAWs and NLEs.

2. Adapter is a technical term. It applies to what makes EUCON work in Pro Tools and all EUCON DAWs.

As I've stated before, work needs to be done on the DAW side (Adapter), and the EUCON side for new features. For these features, you will need to be on the latest version of DAW (Adapter) and EuControl.

Many bugs can be fixed in EuControl, when they are on the surface or EUCON side. These bug fixes are delivered in EuControl. No subscription or new DAW version required.

Some bugs need work on the DAW side. The deployment of fixes is at the discretion of the DAW manufacturer. For example, there are no longer bug fixes or new features for EUCON for Logic 9. However, there were several bug fixes in Pro Tools 11.3.1. We can't comment on development of a product in perpetuity. It would be illegal for me to do that as Avid is publicly traded and quite honestly, I don't even know a privately held company who can post with any confidence about such a thing. So you're not going to see anyone post that they will always fix every bug for free in perpetuity for any product. I can only point to the technical implementation of the solution and our track record, and reiterate that we test EUCON with the current and latest point release of EUCON DAWs.

So by design, old versions will fall off because we can't test and qualify every version of Pro Tools with new products in perpetuity. It's a logical fallacy in any case as some control surfaces require new code and you can't spirit new code into old versions. You'll need to freeze your system if you never want to upgrade from Pro Tools 11.

I don't see any conspiracy or controversy here. If anything, we have provided more bug fixes for legacy versions of software in Pro Tools than any other EUCON DAW, and more releases to improve and support EUCON than any control protocol in history.

This will be my last post in response to your concerns, as they have been answered concisely.

JC
john.haydon@avid.com
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  #19  
Old 09-02-2015, 07:02 PM
Barry Johns Barry Johns is offline
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Default Re: Avid S3 suport plan clarification please.

I have responded to you JC via email, I look forward to hearing back from you.
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  #20  
Old 09-02-2015, 07:49 PM
Barry Johns Barry Johns is offline
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Default Re: Avid S3 suport plan clarification please.

I just want to give a Shout Out to JC, as he and I have had an offline conversation and I feel good about him understanding our needs.

Thanks JC.
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